Natalya and the curse of talent in a WWE Diva
by mountaineers101 on Feb 9, 2012 1:50 PM EST
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For pro wrestling fans, there is a notorious fallacy that Vince McMahon is partial towards "bodybuilders" instead of the leaner, quicker, more athletic wrestler. People seem to forget the consistent time that wrestlers like Rey Mysterio and Randy Orton have spent on top. And rest assured, even if Rey is pushing 200-pounds these days and his knees are pleading for mercy, that extra 50-pounds he is carrying is not Lex Luger's or Davey Boy Smith's 50-pounds.
While fans are quick to contrive theories that often prove untrue like this one, I have made note of a trend that is slowly beginning to infest itself back into the WWE's storylines and onto your television every Monday and Friday night.
The curse of being a legitimate talent in the ring could hurt you if you are a WWE Diva.
Women's wrestling is so often treated as just a novelty anymore, but even the novelty is wearing thin and becoming more of a bore or hassle to watch. One of the more disturbing things I have seen plaguing the Divas is the recent gimmick given to Natalya.
She farts. Seriously.
Natalya is a well-traveled veteran of the squared circle. She has wrestling in her lineage, as her father is Jim "The Anvil" Neidhart, who is also brother-in-law to Bret Hart. Needless to say, wrestling in the Hart family is pretty much inherent and through training in the heralded Hart Family "Dungeon" and learning the art of professional wrestling (along with amateur wrestling and MMA) and toiling on the bleak women's independent scene, Natalya made her way to the WWE.
In her time spent with the company, Natalya has been rewarded with the Divas championship once. She is now known as half of "The Divas of Doom" duo with Beth Phoenix. Proven to be a capable in-ring talent, you would think Natalya would be saddled with a powerful gimmick, running amuck over the smaller, less capable Divas.
But no. Natalya recently jobbed to the backstage, comedic persona of Aksana and let out a loud fart earlier in the night when the two Divas confronted each other in Teddy Long's office prior to the match announcement.
WWE Creative is torn on the Divas division. Kelly Kelly went from gaining a modicum of fan support to off our television completely unless she is accompanied by 3 other Divas in an unnecessary 8-woman tag match. Tamina seems to be getting a push, which isn't truly unjust in my book. She is green, but shows some flashes of potential, although living completely off her father's name and gimmick.
The WWE Divas division doesn't bother me when ladies like Beth Phoenix are in the ring. These women have proven capable of working an average match or can at least deliver a nice squash match when called upon. But, is it worth to squander some of your best talents in-ring on gimmicks and having them meander around behind the curtain? Having Natalya fart in an office and Eve play constant implied sexual assault victim to Kane each week?
All of this so Alicia Fox can cut unbearable promos after matches where she legitimately hurts her opponents and Aksana can make jokes about Theodore Long's unmentionables each week.
I pose some questions to you, my fellow Cagesiders. Did this division lose all credibility when the belt changed names and was remade to have your champion adorn a pink butterfly strap? Was the loss of credible talent like Mickie James, Gail Kim, and Trish Stratus the death of this division? Or do you think there is still some talent that could salvaged from this wreck?
Finally, do you think Divas like Beth Phoenix, Natalya, or Eve should be painted into a corner with minimal exposure or tasteless gimmicks while Alicia Fox or Kelly Kelly are wasting your time trying to get "foxy" and doing stinkfaces?
Oh, by the way, did you know Layla still is on the roster? Yeah, me neither.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Cageside Seats readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Cageside Seats editors or staff.
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The answer my friends is Blowin in the wind....
Long gone are the days where any legitimacy was given to women wrestling in WWE, or ever since Mcmahon Jr has been at the helm. Even Moolah came on board to the realization that The Diva’s division was meant to be nothing more than “eye candy” for the 18-35 yr old long sought after demographic for the WWE, and an additional amusement vehicle for Vince. Look no further than what they did with Sable and her dressing up as a dominatrix, complete with her whip and 6" stilletto heel boots, and the suggestive videos they did with Tammy “sunny” Fytch when they wanted to take it up a notch from “The Bodydonna’s” gimmick, all the way to making Trish Strattus get down on all fours and bark like a dog, public humiliation of Micki James by Laycool in calling her “Piggy James”, I could go on and on! So why should Nattie Neidhart, even with The Hart Foundation lineage be exempt from being just another means of amusement for Mcmahon, or Kevin Dunn? It’s been going on for quite some time now, we should be used to it! As for the transitioning away from the muscle freaks to the lighter weight more skilled workers, have we forgot that Linda McMahon still has political aspirations? Natalya might have something to say about that! Whewwww!
Scott Druyan
by matz57 on Feb 8, 2012 4:11 PM EST via mobile reply actions
The idea that Vince is partial towards larger dudes is not a fallacy. Sure, many normal-sized guys break through and become main eventers and all-time greats, but Vince still pushes way too many oversized guys who clearly have little wrestling talent other than being physically huge. And the really small guys (cruiserweights) have an especially uphill battle when it comes to getting a big push.
Mcmahon built a global empire around larger than life behemoths. And very few of them had wrestling skills, they didn’t need to. The Ultimate Warrior, Hulk Hogan were two stars that were marketed towards a young male demographic that got hooked on the smoke and mirrors mirage. Merchandise flew off the shelves at unheard of levels! Why would anyone stray from that formula? What brought about a change of heart in the body types that were pushed was a lot of negative feedback the company endured particularly and now in hindsight unfairly, over the Benoit tragedy that brought unneeded attention to the company over the steroids issue, particularly during a period in which Linda McMahon sought public office! So McMahon had to go with Plan B which involved less body mass, but better communicators, and better workers. Enter CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Zach Ryder, so far so good but is this a change of direction for the company or a temporary fix only to revert back to the old ways once the all clear is signaled (Linda comes up short in her 2nd bid at senate) After all, these men were not created by WWE they were part of a temporary truce between Vince and IWC. As for the cruiserweights, it goes against the WWE formula of story telling McMahon feels with all that fast in ring action nobody truly gets over individually for the co. to make any $$ off of, there’s not enough wiilingness on their part to spend the time reeducating the fan base to get emotionally invested in it!
Scott Druyan
by matz57 on Feb 8, 2012 9:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's old news
That’s an 80’s/early 90’s philosophy. Vinny Mac rode the wave of Hulkamania to untold riches and often matched up wrestlers against him that would be physically imposing even to the Hulkster. Even after wrestlers like Ric Flair and Bret Hart got their time at the top he still held on to this mindset giving the mighty Deisel a title run.
The WWE landscape has changed and even with smaller guys getting pushed to the moon. But big guys with always have a shot because they have the look.
"Have a good time...all the time." - Viv Savage
Notorious fallacy notorious fallacy that Vince McMahon is partial towards "bodybuilders"?
The same Vince McMahon who started the World Bodybuilding Federation?
The same Vince McMahon who luckily avoided jail time in that 1993 steroid trial?
http://www.theday.com/article/20100409/NWS12/100409727/1017
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_McMahon#Steroids_and_the_WWE
The same Vince McMahon who publicly chastised Randy Orton on live TV for coming back from injury looking “skinny”?
Uh uh.
by Mr. Sunny Days on Feb 9, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
It isn’t necessarily always true though.
We are Ruining Your Special Night, motherfuckers!
by mountaineers101 on Feb 9, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
He did look skinny
When Mike Ditka calculates pi it's decimal representation ends. | @wiltfongjr
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Feb 9, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
Divas
I think the Diva division is suffering from a lack of managers and valets. Let the Kelly Kellys of the world be eye candy and strut down the ramp as a valet to add swagger to a wrestler. Since no story time is being given to managers/valets, or even the tag division divas really have no way to get meaningful camera time.
The WWE is so focused on rebuilding the championship belts they’ve let everything else go to seed. A strong divas division is a sign of a healthy wrestling division. If time and story can be spent on the divas divison it means everything else is running well.
Its sad because a good Divas divsion can help out the midcard, the belt chase, and tag team storylines. The Diva champ siding with the challenger for the belt makes storylines and brings both divisions into the spot light.
Thank you Geno!
We are Ruining Your Special Night, motherfuckers!
by mountaineers101 on Feb 9, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
Creative and Kharma
It feels they had everything invested in Kharma coming aboard and wrecking shit but when she got pregnant creative said screw it and put the division into a holding pattern until she returns full time.
Pretty much. Phoenix vs. Kharma could be a pretty solid feud…but we all know they won’t do that.
We are Ruining Your Special Night, motherfuckers!
by mountaineers101 on Feb 9, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
I bet you will
I bet you that’s Mania. She’ll beat Tamina at Chamber and then continue with her “No body can beat me” thing and go against Kharma at Mania. Maybe not, but it looks like they’re implying that she’s run through the roster.
I think it’d be better if Kharma were heel and Beth were face though.
Absolutely
King said on this past RAW that Beth stated that there are no Divas around who can compete on her level. Cue Kharma.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 9, 2012 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
Excellent Article. I rec'd it with a quickness.
This has been going on since the early 80’s. The problem is that they’ve blurred the lines between valets and legit female wrestlers. Kelly Kelly…is a valet. Alicia Fox is a valet. Aksana is a valet. They have no reason to be in the ring with the likes of Beth, Kharma, Nattie, A.J., Kaitlyn (who seriously needs to get some damn screen time on either Smackdown or Raw) and shit…even Eve.
When Sable & Sunny came onto the scene, a lightbulb more or less went off in Vince’s head and he realized a core truth: sex sells. Why have a decent looking gal who can wrestle her ass off when I can find six Hawaiian Tropics models, teach them the bare basics and have them do whatever I want? It’s really more about sex appeal and trying to nail that 18-35 demographic than actual wrestling at this point…and that’s sad.
The thing with Nattie is that I think (and this is just speculation on my part) Vince is still holds a bit of a grudge against The Harts and he’s taking it out on her. The gal can hold her own with the boys and I think that scares him a little bit.
“An actual empowered female that can wrestle? Heavens forbid, we can’t have that! We need more Kelly Kelly’s. We need more generic model types!!! skims a Maxim HER! GET ME HER! What’s that? Who cares if she doesn’t know how to wrestle, she’s hot!”
And that’s yet another problem: Vince is flat out afraid to break the mold. Whenever I bring up professional wrestling to my female friends…do you know whose name comes up more than anyone else?
Lita.
Why? Because she wasn’t a blonde Barbie doll. She had dyed red hair, a huge shoulder tattoo, hasn’t conventionally hot and got most of her in-ring gear at Hot Topic. My female friends could relate to her. To them, she was a gal that they could hang out with and that’s another thing Vince is ignoring: the female demographic. Yeah, it’s not a stretch to say that they want to see hot guys in the ring…but are there really any Divas on the roster that an average gal could relate to? Is there anyone that really stands out? If you ask me, yes…and that’s A.J….but look how they’re using her. She’s not in any position of power. She’s not in the title chase. She’s D-Bry’s “95 lb. girlfriend” and that’s it.
WWE needs to completely overhaul their women’s division before they do some serious damage.
#HustleLoyaltyVagisil
Yep. All correct. I say set up the less talented girls as valets or novelty matches and try to build around Nattie, Phoenix, Kharma, A.J., Kaitlyn, maybe Eve? A couple others.
We are Ruining Your Special Night, motherfuckers!
by mountaineers101 on Feb 9, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Great minds...
Another thing they could do is mine FCW for a few gals and bring them up. They seriously need to beef up the Divas division. It’s lacking.
#HustleLoyaltyVagisil
And don’t be afraid to develop girls like Kelly Kelly and Alicia Fox at FCW. If Snooki is pulling the same moves as some of your top Divas at Wrestlemania, you are doing something wrong.
We are Ruining Your Special Night, motherfuckers!
by mountaineers101 on Feb 9, 2012 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
I just want Maryse back...
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 9, 2012 3:00 PM EST reply actions
Wait...Randy Orton's not a bodybuilder?
I am kind of stuck on this point. Have you seen him? His legs look like gigantic chicken wings!
I believe that Orton and Cena are the physical limit Vince wants to get towards aesthetic strength.
I don’t think Vince has any knowledge of practical strength.
Sure, he knows moves, but I don’t think he gets technique.
"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
The Divas division is about as bad as it gets from the perspective of how it is used on TV right now. However, I think WWE has way more important issues to deal with in terms of turning their product around. For example, will they go into WM29 in 2013 once again needing legends and part-timers to fill out all the top matches on the show? Or are they going to actually focus on elevating some of their full-time talent in the next year?
Yeah I’d love to see them actually give performers like Beth, Natalya, and Kharma a legit chance to show off their talents. But even if the Divas division is going strong, does it really help sell PPV’s? I don’t think it really matters much in that regard, and so I don’t think there is really any urgency from WWE’s perspective to fix this obvious issue.
More important issues, for example, might be: How the hell do we get the fans to give a shit about Wade Barrett? How the hell do we make Sheamus interesting? How can we best use John Cena to create new stars? How can we restore credibility to Alberto Del Rio’s character? How do we get Miz to stop hurting the talent? How can we best use the IC and US Titles to help create interest in the talent? How should we next humiliate JR? Why do we have such a huge boner for The Great Khali? It’s almost been 10 years, can we reuse that necrophilia storyline yet?
I think the question of “How the hell do we fix the Divas division?” is way down on their list of priorities, though it may still have a better chance of being addressed than the “How the hell do we fix the tag team division?” issue.
WWe is building up a lot of guys right now. Cody, Bryan, Sheamus… I like where things are going. They are keeping Orton, Cena, Kane.. the 3 w/ the most # of years out of the big picture. Orton is busting ass getting guys over.
Suum Cuique
by Rawuncutnxrated on Feb 9, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
No they're not.
The’re just putting guys in the forbidden zone because a 60 year old man doesn’t get his audience anymore and he fully can’t accept the fact that people get fame in other places.
"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
the divas arent taken seriously much like tag teams IC/US belts and lightweights
unless you are cena, cm punk, orton you are not to outperform them 3.
the women havent been given anything credible in years. donkeys years.
layla is out injured tbf. with a torn ACL and MCL i think. and wont be appearing till maybe a while past wrestlemania.
tamina is apparently good. but all ive seen from her is a “snuka splash” from her. thats not really “wrestling talent” is it?
beth, natalya, eve are the 3 best women in wwe barring kharma. but only beth and natalya have shown it. eve knowing jiu-jitsu should be able to do better with a jiu-jitsu gimmick tho imo.
only 2 belts are credible in wwe. wwe belt and WHC belt.
Man, Rey is so gassed that it's ridiculous.
He never woulda made it otherwise. Vince wants muscley guys in general, and so does Triple H (remember the Waffle House comment he made to a non-muscley-having CM Punk).
To your other point, nothing matters to the WWE except for the main eventers, so the Divas are in the same boat as all the dudes in the midcard. It’s more of a systemic inability to book anyone decently (unless they are on Smackdown and thus are ignored by Vince) than anything else.
Rey looks so bloated it’s completely sad! Even worse was Eddie Guerrero. Compare the transition that took place between WCW Eddie and WWE Eddie…
by Mr. Sunny Days on Feb 9, 2012 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
Almost like Scott Steiner. That dude would return from back issues w/ about 30# of muscle each time.. but him & Eddie.. They would wear the long trunks & not build up their legs.
Suum Cuique
by Rawuncutnxrated on Feb 9, 2012 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
Also, according to former WWE writer Court Bauer, Vince was against Rey’s main event push. They had to fight him the whole way, to have Rey win the Rumble and then go over at WrestleMania. And, don’t forget, he might be the worst booked champion of all time. Rey Mysterio’s not a very good example of “Vince getting behind the little guy”.
Which athlete do you take more seriously?
Candace Parker of L.A. Sparks
OR
Kobe Bryant of L.A. Lakers
At least in a WWE ring, you can get paid to look hot for 10 minutes if you’re a woman. Unfair? Yes it is but it is what it is.
but the difference is kobe is well known.
in wwe it should be about can they work?
the divas look shit with the main reason being they get 5 mins per week, not per show, per week. meaning raw + sd time = 5 mins.
now if you said who do i take more seriously lets say mickie james of tna or justin gabriel of wwe…i say mickie james. why? cos shes booked better than about 95% of wwe talent. which wwe are not really good at. booking. they rarely have a big pay off. they are good at advertising, marketing etc.
its all to do with cena, orton cm punk are the top 3 in wwe. and wwe do not want anyone else outperforming them atm. sheamus, will be getting into that tier soon. daniel bryan maybe. maybe not despite being given the run with the WHC belt.
by wrestlingfan12 on Feb 9, 2012 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
The Women's wrestling
Is one of the few things that TNA does better than WWE. It’s a shame.
by The Name is Dalton on Feb 9, 2012 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
And so few people see that weekly. It is a damn shame.
We are Ruining Your Special Night, motherfuckers!
by mountaineers101 on Feb 9, 2012 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
Extremely good points there.
However though, wrestling is in a male’s alley, so are sports in general. So, women won’t be taken seriously despite the fact that some of them may be skilled or booked well than others. When I think of TNA by itself in its entirety, I think of Kurt Angle, Sting, Jeff Hardy, and the likes; Mickie James does not spring to mind. At least not immediately. Nor any other female wrestlers.
Guys are very marketable to the audience especially in sports entertainment, so this is what Vince goes for. Just think in a parallel universe somewhere, would Joan Cena make millions (or billions) of dollars for WWE and sell for the audience as well as John Cena over here? Not very likely, methinks. Joan Cena would definitely be overshadowed by male performers just as Trish Stratus, Mickie James, Lita, Torrie Wilson, Stacy Keibler, Sara Del Rey, Natalya, Beth Phoenix, and the likes were.
It’s almost like trying to sell males as a nurse, as a beautician, or any other female dominated profession towards society. From a sociological standpoint, a gender will struggle in a field that their opposing gender currently dominates. Females as firefighters, cops, lumberjacks, etc or males as nurses, beautician, underwear super models, etc.
However, I won’t disagree that the booking coming from WWE and ESPECIALLY TNA could be better overall. And that Vince and co. needs to further develop their batch of superstars that can legitimately rise to the status of WWE’s Big Three.
by Sir Ingenious on Feb 9, 2012 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
It’s almost like trying to sell males as a nurse, as a beautician, or any other female dominated profession towards society. From a sociological standpoint, a gender will struggle in a field that their opposing gender currently dominates. Females as firefighters, cops, lumberjacks, etc or males as nurses, beautician, underwear super models, etc.
I cannot begin to stress how much I disagree with this.
One of the best cops I know is a family friend and she worked her ass off to get where she is today. Same thing goes for one of the best nurses I know…he’s phenomenal at what he does.
#HustleLoyaltyVagisil
Wtf are you talking about?
The Williams sisters are some of the greatest athletes out there, and are beloved. As are a lot of female tennis players. Looking at the Olypics (both summer and winter), there are tons of great athletes out there. Our woman’s national soccer team is probally more beloved than our males. If you look at any form of wrestling outside the mainstream, females are considered just as good as the males. If you put them in a position to succeed, they will. Get out of here with this male dominated society crap. If they booked Joan Cena to win 10+ world titles, the fans would respond by cheering/booing and buying merch. Simple as that
I'm big, I'm white, I'm Irish, and G*d damnit people like me!
by C. J. Bradford on Feb 9, 2012 9:34 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
It's not an issue of sexism
Promoters made a lot of money just by exhibiting the freakish roided out bodies of guys like the Ultimate Warrior. His body in itself sells. It sells to males. It sells to women. The 80’s were based on that model. That’s just one example where women will have a tough time competing against males without even taking performance into account.
Exhibiting roided out female bodies is swimming against the tide in terms of selling tickets. Not a lot of men are interested and not a lot of women either. There does exist a public for it but since we’re talking about generating sales there’s no real competition.
Same for gigantic guys like The Big Show. The female equivalent simply does not impress or generate as much interest.
It gets worse when you take performance into account.
John Cena can lift Mark Henry over his shoulders for the Attitude Adjustment and get a big pop. Brock Lesnar can superplex the Big Show, collapse the ring and get a massive pop. Impressive feats and the John Cenas and Brock Lesnars are not even hard to find. There’s plenty of them. Profits will be made.
Joan Cena most likely cannot lift Marcy Henry for the Attitude Adjustment. Brooke Lesnar likely could not lift the Big & Beautiful Show. Those that could would be exceptions and in small numbers (thinking Kharma and Beth Phoenix, both less marketable than Trish or Lita in terms of physique).
So that’s a second area where women have the deck stacked against them.
The one area where women in wrestling are on true equal ground with the men is promos. I can’t think of a good reason why women couldn’t generate the charisma needed to be on par. And reflecting on this, it strikes me as strange that they haven’t capitalized on this yet. They should all bust their asses to have incredible promo skills.
Women’s wrestling can work when they emphasize their strengths (speed, flexibility, technique) and minimize their weaknesses. Joshi does this pretty well and has shown that it can be profitable. However, in the American market, women face similar disadvantages to the cruiser weight males while rarely overcompensating for it by bringing their workrate to the remarkable levels that the cruiser weights do.
by Mr. Sunny Days on Feb 10, 2012 12:09 AM EST up reply actions
Females could easily be great cruiser weights
The idea that they don’t have a good “workrate” is absurd. You bring up Joshi, and I believe WWE could turn that into their own thing. In a world where a stunner sends people into a seizure but a chair shot to the head can be overcome means that you can have women stand up to men. And are you really going to tell me Karhma couldn’t lift up 90% of the roster? Just be careful with the booking and you avoid matching up a diva and a hoss. Everything else will be fine. Get rid of KK and the like, book divas to look competent, and let the women show they have actual skills so people don’t assume they all suck.
I'm big, I'm white, I'm Irish, and G*d damnit people like me!
by C. J. Bradford on Feb 10, 2012 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, female could be great cruiser weights.
But they aren’t there yet. Not in America.
And let me again stress the word: overcompensate. Have to work much, MUCH harder for a spot that would be given to a Cena or Batista.
Males cruisers among the likes of Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guerrero, Benoit, Shawn Michaels have had to bring their workrate to remarkable levels (excellent among the excellent) and make much bigger sacrifices to their bodies to have the spots that they’ve had. And never could they let up and get lazy. Never were they really secure.
You can see this issue with modern guys like AJ Styles, Shelton Benjamin, Morrison and Ziggler. All phenomenal athletes who absolutely mastered wrestling….And it’s still not enough.
If male cruisers have to work twice as hard as the heavyweights (it’s more than that, honestly), women have to work THRICE as hard as the heavyweights to get taken as seriously.
And on the American scene, Shimmer and Sara Del Rey are not yet even equal in performance to the best male cruisers and they’ll have to at least match them to really get noticed if they continue wrestling the same style as the men. When it comes to workrate, what they really need to do is find a way to be as spectacular as the cruisers in a style that’s noticeably their own. Then they would be viewed as a serious option and they’d receive more in terms of marketing effort.
In spite of all this I’ve just written, I’ll say that in the WWE, women’s real problem is charisma. Solving the workrate problem is too large and unnecessary in that company. Charisma is the WWE divas’ salvation. The diva that become a phenom in promos while being halfway decent in the ring will be taken seriously as a star they can market.
you can have women stand up to men.
It’s not going to happen with normal sized women. It can only work with a tiny select few like Chyna, Beth or Kharma. Two of them bodybuilders and the other one much bigger and stronger than average. And as was the case with Kharma, she’s paired up with a smaller guy like Dolph Ziggler. You can’t pair her with the medium sized Randy Orton types without asking your audience too much suspension of disbelief.
Look at Daniel Bryan. Consider how talented he is and how much he has to overcome when presented against bigger opponents. Which is most of the roster. Selling intergender competition is another example of swimming against the tide, making life hard for yourself. They are not going to do it.
Also, it’s not just booking, Kharma may be strong and have a degree of suspension of disbelief but would you pair her up against Randy Orton? I think you’d be wasting Orton when you’d get more out of him paired up a Christian, Barrett or Sheamus. I’m just using Orton as example to say that Kharma vs most guys would just be wasting a better match.
by Mr. Sunny Days on Feb 10, 2012 1:31 AM EST up reply actions
Where are you pulling this from?
Yes, up and comers have to work harder than established wrestlers. Smaller wrestlers have to work harder than larger ones. So? The problem lies and always lied with how they were presented. If WWE put Sara Del Rey in the center of the ring and she can cut a great promo, then people would buy her. This idea that people wouldn’t take them seriously is absurd. Who wouldn’t? Straw men? Let’s not use any arguments you cannot point to directly. And stop using workrate. It’s a word with no true meaning. Someone is good or bad at wrestling. Yes, style must be taken into account. But “the amount of moves someone does in the ring” does not prove anything.
And okay, Danielson. What about? He is one of the greatest they have on the roster. If someone upstairs said that he’s crap and didn’t hire him, they would have lost a great talent. Since when is doing something difficult a reason to not do it? That’s crap.
And fuck yes I would love Kharma v Orton. A better fucking matchup? What crap is that, wasting a matchup. You put on what’s entertaining. The idea that a woman cannot physically hold her own in the ring is bs. The idea that the match would be bad is bs. The idea that no one “would believe it” is crap. If the WWE put on an intergender match, it would be just as good or bad as everything else they put in. Sara vs Punk would be amazing, just as Kharma vs Orton. Eve vs Miz would suck. That’s not because of the gender, but because of the individual’s.
I'm big, I'm white, I'm Irish, and G*d damnit people like me!
by C. J. Bradford on Feb 10, 2012 1:46 AM EST up reply actions
WORD.
And to be more specific about C.J.‘s Olympics reference: What is the sport most like pro wrestling? In my mind, it’s gymnastics. Some people jokingly compare it to ballet, but I think it’s actually an apt comparison. And what gender are the most famous gymnasts and dancers? Female. Can you even name a male gymnast or a male dancer? The problem is that the backstage ranks in wrestling promotions are overwhelmingly male, and they have no idea how to capitalize on women’s natural athletic abilities. They don’t know how to promote and tout women the way the Olympics and dance companies do. I would KILL to see a bunch of former gymnasts compete as high flyers in WWE. But because women aren’t taken seriously in wrestling, and people can’t even IMAGINE them being taken seriously, it’s probably not going to happen.
by joliemadchen on Feb 10, 2012 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
“Smaller wrestlers have to work harder than larger ones. So? The problem lies and always lied with how they were presented.”
It’s not as simple as that. Presentation is sizzle, you need still need substance underneath it. Big muscular wrestlers like Cena and Batista have physiques that sell and they can get by with only doing impressive power moves demonstrating great strength. The average Joe of 5’10/170 pound is not going to get over just for being 5’10/170 pound. He’s boring next to these powerful larger-than-life athletes. That average sized guy has to become an Evan Bourne type or a Daniel Bryan and impress the crowds a different way. A man of similar size to Rey Mysterio, a natural 5’5/140 will have utilize a different strategy to stand out. He’s competing for crowd acceptance against the muscular giants and the average sized gifted wrestlers. A man of Rey’s size has to become even more impressive in the ring and colorful by wearing a cool mask and fun outfits. He is working much harder to overcompensate for his size. It’s not a presentation issue. Before you could sell Rey to the crowd he had to develop a few qualities to make an impact and differentiate himself from both those of average size as well as the behemoths.
There’s a reason steroids are rampant in wrestling. The pumped up body sells. The skinny guy without muscle does not sell. He remains in the indies. The only skinny guy without muscle that I can recall making it was Zack Gowen, a one-legged high flying wrestler. Colossal overcompensation. Immense differentiation from the pack.
The man of regular size with good muscle mass still needs to overcompensate by becoming remarkable in the ring to get the crowd to engage. A man smaller than the average sized guy, like Rey, will need to overcompensate that much more. You can’t solve that only with presentation. You couldn’t take a man of Rey’s size and expect to sell him to crowds while being next to Batista without him having something distinctive to impress. You don’t see a lot of small men in wrestling.
Women face the same issues as the Rey Mysterios of the world. They have to make an impact and impress that much harder. Which brings us back to-
Workrate. The term will be used whether you dislike it or not. It exists for a reason. It does not refer to "the amount of moves someone does in the ring" . It refers to the amount of skill being exhibited, and that includes selling, psychology, drama, getting the crowd engaged in what they are seeing. Matches are judged by fans and always will be. Some matches get standing ovations. It’s for a reason. Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels both reduced their number of moves but still worked better matches than most. Whether you find them entertaining or not, there is an industry consensus on their skill level. And these two men of average size didn’t have a choice, they had to wrestle well to make it. They could not get by only with presentation.
The reason we talk about TNA Knockouts is because they could work. Workrate. They’ve earned that good reputation. It wasn’t given to them and it wasn’t about their presentation. Gail Kim and Awesome Kong received rave reviews from crowds. The fans judged them positively. For their workrate. Not promos, not flash, not costumes. Workrate.
What is meant by “being taken seriously” is what is required to get a crowd to engage. To pay for the content, to pay at the gate, to pay for the PPV. People will weigh their options. For example, you have two competing wrestling cards on the same night and at the same time with different main events, one being Samoa Joe vs Kurt Angle and the other being Kim vs Kong. Audiences will weigh their choices and make a decision. WWE crowds typically don’t engage in divas matches. For a reason. A lot of these Divas have been well presented. It’s not as simple as presentation. WWE crowds buy into Beth Pheonix and Kharma. For a reason.
As for the intergender match-ups, you’re not considering how weight plays into working matches. If one of the wrestlers can’t lift/catch the other, it limits what they will do in the ring. We come back to Kharma, who is definitely not average. She’s your exception that proves the rule. Would you expect Trish Stratus (average sized woman) and Randy Orton to be able to work a match? Taking height and size differentials into account?
As for wasting match-ups…don’t forget this is a business. It’s about money making matches featuring wrestlers who can draw. Getting people to pay for admission and PPVs. It’s not entertainment for entertainment’s sake. So yes, it is possible to waste a match-up.
To joliemadchen:
Off the top of my head, I think paired-up figure skating is the closest sport to pro wrestling.
“capitalize on women’s natural athletic abilities. They don’t know how to promote and tout women the way the Olympics and dance companies do. I would KILL to see a bunch of former gymnasts compete as high flyers in WWE.”
Yes, I’m the person who initially made the comparison to cruiser weights. And you’re repeating my own argument. My words:
" Women’s wrestling can work when they emphasize their strengths (speed, flexibility, technique) and minimize their weaknesses. Joshi does this pretty well and has shown that it can be profitable. However, in the American market, women face similar disadvantages to the cruiser weight males while rarely overcompensating for it by bringing their workrate to the remarkable levels that the cruiser weights do."
Former gymnasts would probably be able to create a style where they differentiate themselves and stand out as unique. My entire point.
by Mr. Sunny Days on Feb 10, 2012 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
Look, sirs, whatever you may think about the Divas or women's athletes in general.
I think we can all appreciate quality grapz from people of any gender.
As an offering and an example of this, I share with you Awesome Kong and Hamada vs. Taylor Wilde and Sarita:
(Sorry, it only shows the finishing stretch
but if you can find the whole thing and you haven’t seen it, you should watch it. And if you have already seen it, you should watch it again because it is awesome.)
Tamina seems to be getting a push, which isn’t truly unjust in my book. She is green, but shows some flashes of potential, although living completely off her father’s name and gimmick.
And you think Nattie isn’t living solely off her family’s name? In fact, if not for her uncle, she wouldn’t be in a WWe ring. She’s not very attractive & her “gimmick” of being a monster & running through the division, well its already being done better by Beth. See, in the men’s division, you have 2 shows & I would say 5x the amount of talent. You could have a couple guys doing the monster heel gimmick. When you have 9 women on your roster, you cannot have 2 women running the same gimmick. At least Nattie hasn’t something to hang her hat on… and for all we know, she could have proposed &/or endorsed this. And yes, I know Layla is still on the roster, and I for one, really miss seeing her. I wish McCool were still around as well.. the women’s division was immensely better at that point. The 2 of them on the mic were golden, real talk.
Come to think of it.. The Diva’s division may actually have more hispanic/latin ladies than any other ethnicity. Layla, Nikki, Brie, Rosa, Eve. That’s approximately half the roster.
Suum Cuique
Nattie is gorgeous, I don't know what you're thinking to say she's not attractive
She is also one of the best female wrestlers the WWE has had in at least the past 10+ years. I’m not talking about pushes or gimmicks or anything like that. In terms of pure skills, she’s one of the best and if you asked any person who has worked with her, they would agree.
In my eyes, I’d bed her down last. And that was pre-flatulence.
Suum Cuique
by Rawuncutnxrated on Feb 9, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
To each his own, I suppose.
I find her simply beautiful. I’d much rather be with her, than, say, Kelly. Not that I’d turn down sex from Kelly; I wouldn’t. I’d just have to double up on the condoms, and have an ice pick handy (to stab the crabs).
I fed the Funkasaurus.
She pulls it off in a sexy way
She has a horse face, but it’s a pretty horse face.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 9, 2012 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
Tamina, I am still convinced, is a certifiable man, though
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 9, 2012 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
Stephanie McMahon embraces and shows off her femininity while Natalya is pretty masculine all-in-all. That’s why Steph’s strong jawline doesn’t seem as bad as Natalya’s.
by Sir Ingenious on Feb 10, 2012 12:56 AM EST up reply actions
Layla is Moroccan/Spainish
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 9, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
Yea, but I also forgot AJ.
Suum Cuique
by Rawuncutnxrated on Feb 9, 2012 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
For pro wrestling fans, there is a notorious fallacy that Vince McMahon is partial towards “bodybuilders” instead of the leaner, quicker, more athletic wrestler. People seem to forget the consistent time that wrestlers like Rey Mysterio and Randy Orton have spent on top.
Randy Orton had muscles on top of muscles when he was juicing, and even off the roids, he still built.
Not to mention, you’re using Rey Mysterio’s push as a defense for Vince? Rey Mysterio has probably been booked worse than any other wrestler in WWE history. Do I even need to bring up Rey’s disastrous 2006 run, or the fact that he only ever gets something resembling a push when literally everyone else is too busy or injured?
Randy Orton has never looked like a Mason Ryan or a Batista.
We are Ruining Your Special Night, motherfuckers!
by mountaineers101 on Feb 10, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
The guy is beautifully built, though
He is as jacked as the human body can be without looking like a science experiment.
I'm big, I'm white, I'm Irish, and G*d damnit people like me!
by C. J. Bradford on Feb 10, 2012 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
No question. He has a really nice MMA physique. Enough to look tough and be effective without losing ligaments and lung capacity.
We are Ruining Your Special Night, motherfuckers!
by mountaineers101 on Feb 10, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
Orton still looked like this.
Just because he wasn’t Mason Ryan doesn’t mean that this wasn’t a hell of a lot of muscle.
The only short wrestlers who ever got huge pushes in WWE were Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, and Shawn Michaels. All three were the best workers of their eras, two were fantastic on the mic, and one was the most ruthless politician in WWE history. Not to mention, all three looked like this.
The only one of these guys who didn’t have muscles on top of muscles was Shawn Michaels, but Shawn was still very toned, very tan, very handsome, and six times as ruthless. Not to mention the steroid trial around the time of his push.
Image is still a big deal in WWE, and it likely always will be.
Wow, Shawn was pretty damn hairy
I guess being hairy, that added to his “ladies man” thing, a la Austin Powers?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 10, 2012 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
Eve's name should be NOWHERE near Beth's or Natalya's
Just because she can bounce her ass like some hoe in a night club before she does her backflip or even just a flip here and there does not mean she can wrestle. I can’t stand how fucking ignorant people are….anyways WWE has never cared about the womens’s division.
They’ve had less than a handful of so called divas who actually was capable of being called a champ or close to in the past 10-15 years and most of them started out as trashy or ended up being a whore. Trish Stratus although one of the most accomplished women to wrestle started off as your basic tramp. Strutton around showing her tits almost as bad as Traci Boobs does in TNA. Doing basically whatever Vince wanted her to. Does anyone actually think that she’d be push so hard during that era if it wasn’t for her notorious angle with the McMahons? Lita was good aswell but as soon as her cheating on Matt came out, she was looked down on and basically being just another slut, Lets’ look at a couple of the women who were champions. Melina who for the life in me doesn’t know why people thinks she can wrestle slept with 3 guys while going out with Morrison who was just to whipped to say anything but yet she stayed on because she split her legs during her entrance so everyone can see her snatch. Kelly has a known rep aswell as sleeping around so it really doesn’t matter if you have talent or not, as soon as it looks like the women are going to be on the same scale or even slightly close to the men, the WWE puts the screws to them. Just look at how shitty they are making Natalya look. Is that anyway to treat an employee of someone who helped get you where you are and that makes a good argument for women to show they are more than just eye candy for the stupid fucks in the audience to lust over including Vince? Where’s the justification in that? The womens divsion hasn’t been relevant since Alundra Blaze was around. IMO when she went to WCW and dropped the belt in the trash, that solidified the womens division would never be the same again….and look at how sad and pathetic it’s gotten. True you had a few sparks with Mickie being champ and even Maryse who made that fine line between being good looking and actually wrestling and what WWE do with her. The WWE even pushed Michelle McCool as being known as the inaugural Divas champ when they decided to unify and basically say the womens title from all those years doesn’t mean shit. Michelle was nothing but another idiotic tramp who didn’t do shit until she started dating Taker. So basically giving new meaning sleeping your way to the top. Now they are trying to hard to push someone in Alicia Fox who is horrendous on the mic at trying to get the crowd on her side but yet is still around cause she can do a scissor kick. If WWE was serious at all in getting the womens name on par with the mens’ world titles since they could care less about all the mid card divisions then they’d hire women like Sara Del Ray, Cheerleader Melissa and Mercedes Martinez but they want to make the fans (since they are to stupid to see whats really going on) to give you more of a filler than actual entertainment unless it involves top names that are men. In a way it’s sexist but only the few and far between are willing to see this.
you're own stupidity will lead you to your own downfall
by congestedthoughts on Feb 11, 2012 4:37 PM EST reply actions
You know what would help w/ those congested thoughts? Drinking a bottle of drain cleaner.
Suum Cuique
by Rawuncutnxrated on Feb 12, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Some really good diva talent out there. Really a shame that good talent can’t even get a chance to get over because all they do is get squashed by idiots who can’t fucking run the ropes.
At least they’re not shoving Kelly Kelly down our throats any more. I can’t imagine how much it galls the gals who jobbed to her that they had to work so hard to put over someone who wouldn’t even learn the basics of the craft.
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