Dolph Ziggler: I Don't Get It
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 25, 2012 10:09 PM EST
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PrintWell, it isn't really that I don't get why others do, but I do not particularly care for Dolph Zigger.
There, I said it, I'm sure to get plenty of grief for it! That's not to say he sucks- he doesn't. As a wrestler, he doesn't have any massive deficiencies that are apparent, that detract from his matches. He possesses a decent enough ring repertoire, and unlike John Cena or CM Punk (and others, I am sure) he isn't repetitive- I've noticed being fairly choreographed in not the moves that they use, but in the order that they do them in, to the point of being able to call what move is next in the string of combos. People like to say that he's the best seller the WWE has on their roster today. I personally like Evan Bourne better, but I'm not going to disagree that he makes other guys look good. On the microphone, I don't think that he is as great as some other people seem to say he is, but I think he certainly can hold his own. But, outside of these things I don't think Dolph Ziggler is anything particularly special. Many at Cageside Seats, obviously, feel different.
Maybe it starts with his name. ‘Dolph Ziggler'. There is something about the name that I never liked, long before Ziggler began feuding with Zack Ryder, long before receiving his current push. Maybe it's the overtly German overtones that I associate with ‘Dolph', and his lack of being an overtly German-stereotype. Maybe it is, as Asterisk has asserted, the fact that his name is a rip off of Boogie Nights protagonist Dirk Diggler, and his relationship with Vicky Guerrero shades of Dirk Diggler's relationship with Rollergirl. For whatever reason, though, when I hear the name ‘Dolph Ziggler', and see Nick Nemeth, I have some sort of cognitive disconnect.
Maybe it's his look. The bleach blonde curly hair with noticeable roots at times aggravates me irrationally. His former look/logo- "I am Perfection" written in a blue and white in a font meant to look like a retro neon light sign- looked like it belonged in Tron. His new look/logo- "#Heel", written sideways in a simple white font- further intertwines Twitter into WWE broadcasts. While I'm not necessarily opposed to that- Zack Ryder got where he is today with his skillful use of Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube- the constant pop-up ads and mentions by Michael Cole on RAW informing us that so-and-so is trending on Twitter is distracting and annoying. His "#Heel" doesn't say much about him, either; it's not very imaginative, though simple and succinct. Is he a heel? Sure. So is half of the WWE roster. CM Punk is the "Best in the World". The Big Show is a "WMD". The Undertaker is "The Deadman". Kane is the "Big Red Machine". "#Heel" is dull, in terms of catchy phrases and logos. And, I won't even go into the zebra-print tights he's been wearing in matches as of late...Suffice to say, I don't like them.
Maybe it's his gimmick(s)- and I won't even bring up his being Nicky from the Spirit Squad, because it's not relevant to ‘Dolph Ziggler'. Until recently, Dolph was ‘The Natural', who, as reflected in his entrance music and merchandise, was "perfection". Now he is ‘The Showoff', who, well, shows off. Neither does anything for me. As ‘The Natural', Ziggler was perfection. While not exactly shades of Mr. Perfect or anything, considering himself perfection did not make me connect for his character, dislike his character, or evoke any kind of emotional response. He considered himself good- him, and every other guy on the WWE roster considers themselves good. His future was so damn bright, he had to wear shades? What guy is going to say that he doesn't see himself as skilled enough to be meaningful? Now, as ‘The Showoff', Ziggler shows off during matches. He does sit-ups while his opponent is on the ground groggy and slow to get up. He does handstands while holding his opponent on a headlock on the ground. It does a little more for me in evoking a reaction to him, but in my case, it's not all that much, nor does it make me like him any more or less. I see him do a handstand and I say to myself, "OK, he can do a handstand". I see him do sit-ups and I say to myself, "OK, he can do sit-ups". Physically, it's almost a shrug with either slight annoyance or slight amusement, based on what he is doing and when.
Maybe it's because of the pushes he has received, and the reactions that he's gotten from the crowds. Looking only at his RAW tenure in the past year or so, until Zack Ryder began gunning for the US Championship, Dolph Ziggler didn't feel particularly relevant (which is a shame, given that he was a title holder). On June 9th, at the Capital Punishment PPV, he defeated Kofi Kingston for the US Title. It wouldn't be until September 18th at Night of Champions that he defended his title, in a four-way match against Alex Riley, Jack Swagger, and John Morrison. So, for over three months, he held the title, but engaged in no title defenses. The night after Night of Champions, his feud with Ryder took full stage, and seemed to give Ziggler purpose. That three-month program or so had Ziggler best Ryder in their first two title matches, but with trickery and cheating. While it certainly helped Ryder and the chip on his shoulder that got him where he is now, it didn't make Ziggler look particularly convincing as a champion. His current feud with CM Punk, much of the same is happening. He's bested Punk on three consecutive occasions now, but none of them make Ziggler look any better, given that all three were a result of meddling by the Executive Vice President of Talent Relations and the Interim RAW General Manager John Laurenitis. While Ziggler is being elevated from midcard to main event, and is taking on Punk for the WWE Championship, his being a puppet in the conflict between the other two does not make him look better, as an actual threat. All of that shows, I think, in the reactions that he gets from the crowd.
When he and Vicky come out, they get booed. Who is the ire of the audience focused on primarily? The #Heel, or Vicky Guererro? The #Heel, or John Laurenitis? You would figure that the intensity of cheers that CM Punk, or Zack Ryder receives would be inverted, and would resemble the intensity of boos their opponent, Ziggler, would received. That hasn't been the case with Ziggler, as far as I have noticed. People boo him, sure, by virtue of being the bad guy in the relationship, but it doesn't seem to be any deeper than that. They boo Vicky with a passion, because she's Vicky. They boo John Laurenitis with a passion, because he's John Laurenitis. They boo Ziggler half-heartedly, and only because they're supposed to, because he's the guy in the way of the guy the overall audience wants to win. If they're just booing (or cheering, for that matter) you out of necessity like that, I think something is wrong. As a kid, I booed Ted Dibiosi because he was an evil son of a bitch. I booed Hollywood Hulk Hogan because he betrayed everyone. I booed Vince McMahon because he was a power hungry corporate suit. I don't think anyone boos Dolph Ziggler because of who he is, but rather, because of who he is facing.
Might I someday warm up to Ziggler more? Of course. All it takes is a good story and a few matches with memorable moments. Is he better than a lot of other guys the WWE has on their roster? Sure. As the combination of things stand right now, Ziggler does little for me. It's an unpopular opinion, but it is what it is.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Cageside Seats readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Cageside Seats editors or staff.
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/deep breath
1. So you like him, but you don’t love him? Not really the defined position, but okay we will work with it.
2. Look at that picture. The dude just plain looks like a champion. Like a Greek God chiseled out of marble.
3. What’s in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Just because it “sounds” German, he has to have a German stereotype? We should be trying to move beyond that as wrestling fans. And yeah, it very well might be a rip off of Dirk Diggler. What’s the problem with that? Hulk Hogan “Hulk’s up”. Wonder where did that come from?
4. #Heel is one of the most creative and brilliant ideas to come from anyone on the roster. “Best in the World?” Everyone says that. WMD? That would have been relevant 7 years ago. #Heel breaks down the walls of kayfabe. Wrestlers aren’t supposed to know that they are good guys or bad guys. They aren’t supposed to know what a heel or face even is. Ziggler destroys the entire system in the most subtle way possible. He isn’t Punk calling Triple H Paul, he isn’t Cena saying that del Rio rents his cars. He is telling the audience that he is aware he is a bad guy, a showoff, a #heel. But not in an over the top, in your face type of way that ruins the show.
5. The showoff is almost the exact same argument. Bad guys show off in the ring. It’s cheap heat. It shows pride before the fall. It allows the announcers to say, “look at that guy! He is such a showoff. He should be humble, that [insert face]” Ziggler has cut out the middle man. Doing sit ups in the ring is outrageously stupid. There is no point to it. And if it was coming from a serious wrestler, it wouldn’t make any sense. Ziggler is not a serious wrestler, though. He is winking at the audience. He knows that kayfabe is dead, but he won’t continue to beat the horse. It’s subtle, it’s unexpected, it’s brilliant.
6. I don’t understand this point. You are confusing at least three separate ideas. The US Championship, while I am not going to go as far as Geno and call it dead, is a underused and mistreat midcard stap. To hold that against him is unfair. As for Ryder, he was on the way up. There was no real way to remove the US Title from Ziggler and give it to Ryder without hurting Dolph. But it was done in the best way possible. As for his feud with Punk, i think some of the blame has to be laid on the Second City Saint. He is not really building Ziggler up in anyway. However, Dolph is doing better than most wrestlers would do in his situation. He is positioning himself as a true challenger, and that is damn hard to do when you are the third wheel. You cannot look at the booking and say a wrestler sucks because of it.
7. What does crowd reaction has to do with anything? Punk got to feud with the face of the company and win. He took down the biggest face the WWE has to offer, and that is huge with the segment of fans that cheer Punk. Ziggler is a great wrestler, no matter what the audience does. Why are you basing your opinion on what they do? They didn’t always boo Johnny Ace. In fact, a little over a month ago plenty of people here, smart wrestling fans who watch the show with a more careful eye than the average fan, simply hated Lauranitis and wanted him off the screen. Now 90% love him as a bad guy. Ziggler has potential to be amazing. And he will get there. The average WWE fan is behind the curve with their reactions. They will catch up, though. So don’t use their reactions as a base for anything, particularly your own opinion.
8. Your wrap up is as confusing as your beginning. You might like him in the future? If you have an opinion, then state it and don’t qualify it. If you don’t like him, then say you don’t like him. If you really might like him in the future, then why wait? He will be great. And he is damn good right now. Do you need WWE’s booking to tell you that he is good? I love him for what he brings to the ring and on the mic. How WWE uses him is irrelevant to how good he is. If he does nothing for you, than fine. But I don’t see how you gave him a fair chance.
So go forth, my brethren, and proceed to mark the f*ck out
by C. J. Bradford on Jan 25, 2012 10:56 PM EST reply actions
Hahahaha
I spent an hour writing my response, and you basically encapsulate it in two words. Touche.
So go forth, my brethren, and proceed to mark the f*ck out
by C. J. Bradford on Jan 25, 2012 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
Lots of text
I said he doesn’t suck, but I don’t see anything particularly special about him.
Chris Masters looked insane, and there wasn’t really all too much ballyhoo about him.
I am of the opinion that, that “moving past” that kind of latent ethnocentrism hurts the industry. There is always room for a stereotypical Russian character, a Hispanic character, a Middle Eastern character, an Asian character, and so on. They need not be negative stereotypes, but their presence is deeply ingrained in wrestling. All that aside, ‘Hulk’ is a word, meaning something that is bulky, or really built up.
Don’t agree at all that heels aren’t supposed to “know” they’re heels, and faces aren’t supposed to “know” that they’re faces. Razor Ramon called himself “the bad guy”. Kane most certainly considers himself ‘evil’. Hulk Hogan and John Cena knew they were the good guys in ‘Good versus Evil’ type conflicts.
His booking isn’t left fully up to him, but it impacts his character, how he is portrayed, and how he is recieved (his actions, his matches, etc.). As a champion, his reign wasn’t very eventful. His current push, his status as third wheel doesn’t make him look better. The audience generally seems disinterested in disliking him. I disagree that those things, how he is used and percieved, are relevant/irrelevant to how good he is (where good is his total sum character). British Bulldog’s son, for example, was a legitimate catch wrestler, but nobody gushed about him because the other parts of his total character wasn’t there- he couldn’t talk, and he never got pushed.
What is confusing about saying he doesn’t appeal to me now, but in the future, things much change such that he does? When I was seven, girls didn’t appeal to me, and then as a teen, they did. Like I said, all it takes is a good story and a few matches with memorable moments. Mankind never really appealed to me, or particularly stood out, and then he had that Hell in a Cell match.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 26, 2012 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
Indeed
There was some ballyhoo about Masters. The problem with him was he was all looks, and nothing else.
Yes, there may be room for stereotypes, but to say Dolph=German is too easy a note to hit. And to say his name misleads you seems odd.
Hogan actually began his career as The Incredible Hulk Hogan, and had to officially license the name from Marvel. It’s not a coincidence, it was intentional.
Bad guys can know they are bad, but they aren’t supposed to know the term heel. When Cena openly talked about “letting my heel persona shine through,” it was amazing. Characters aren’t supposed to know that they are characters. #Heel does that, bit doesn’t draw attention to it. It’s subtle, and it’s brilliant.
The last sentence about the Bulldog’s son shows where I think you are mixing up separate arguments. 1) I’ve heard a lot of people who love DH Smith. And 2) mic skills and push are two separate categories. A wrestler can control mic skills. They cannot control pushes. How a company uses a wrestler should not be a basis for personal appreciation. You can love or hate Tim Tebow, but if you only like him when he’s a starting QB seems like you are missing the point of evaluating talent.
To sum up, I see what you are saying. But those that gush over Ziggler are doing so because they can enjoy what he does now, and know what he will be doing. If someone told you that you should pay attention to Cactus Jack, that someday he will be something big, would you dismiss them? How would you feel after Heel in a Cell? We are telling you Ziggler is great now, but he will be amazing in the future. If you need to wait till it happens, I get that.
So go forth, my brethren, and proceed to mark the f*ck out
by C. J. Bradford on Jan 26, 2012 9:14 PM EST up reply actions
One of the reasons to love Dolph Ziggler
Watch this move. For those that can’t see, its the Punk gauntlet match and the clip is where Punk sends Ziggler flying into the ring post like he was launched from a cannon. Its a move that has been done thousands and thousands of times, but I can’t remember a single time it was executed that amazingly. And this is what Ziggler routinely does. He sells moves in a way that no one else on the roster does/can. He’s that damn good
He not only sells moves he adds that extra little something that only few wrestlers can to each sell
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
He also found that fine line between selling and overselling
and he straddles that line with pure mastery
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Clemson should've stopped turning the ball over" Dana Holgorsen when asked about running up the score in the Orange Bowl
by WVPiratesfan on Jan 27, 2012 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
I think
Vickie does get a lot of the boos, and it’s part of the reason why I think they should move him away from her. I don’t like her promos, the screeching is weak way to get reactions and annoying.
He may not be the best on the mic, but the bit he had with berating Mick Foley before CM Punk came out with the “Nut uh!!!” retorts was pretty great and shows he has the ability. But he can’t perfect or improve it if you don’t give him the microphone. Let Vickie keep Swagger and give her another stooge, but Ziggler needs to be set free.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 26, 2012 10:10 AM EST reply actions
his name is a rip off of Boogie Nights protagonist Dirk Diggler, and his relationship with Vicky Guerrero shades of Dirk Diggler’s relationship with Rollergirl
Rollergirl was one of his co-stars. The cougar/boy-toy relationship was with Julianne Moore’s character.
On a related note, Heather Graham…
Good for you for putting an unpopular opinion out there but defending it well. I personally like Dolph’s work a lot but you have some fair criticisms. Dolph is far from a sure thing since you can never predict WWE booking. I never would have predicted that Alberto Del Rio could have fallen this far from where I thought he was positioned a year ago. For Dolph to even have a chance at greatness, he needs proper booking behind him. We’ll see where they go with him after the Rumble. Would it be a disappointment for him to “only” end up in a MITB match at Mania with 9 other guys considering that he is in the heavyweight title program right now? I think that will be his fate and that’s not a bad thing for him. He would have decent chance to win it, and it’s still better than being overshadowed by Snooki.
hopefully del rio will come back
with some proper booking, acording to the dirt sheets hes gonna be booked more dominant a la sheamus, altho i cant think of who he’ll be put against tbh
Hey, unlike BDMF, I actually like Ziggler.
I just think his stupid gimmick and constant jobbing are retarded, unnecessary, and have pretty much annihilated his heat. I think the same thing about Danielson, though Danielson’s booking has radically improved since he turned heel and started working on the show Vince McMahon doesn’t care about.
I do understand BDMF though, whenever a company does this sort of practice to anybody, it’s very hard to look past the booking and see their abilities for what they are.
The Old Perfection Music/Gimmick was better
He reminded me of a Mr. Perfect knockoff. Calling himself the showoff I think cheapened the gimmick a little bit. I’m all for headstand type antics though. It’s reminiscent to Bravo’s pushups & the Model’s jumping jacks. It’s a good classic heel move. Just do that stuff, but don’t tell us that you’re showing off while doing them. The antics speak for themselves.
The dude can sell
that’s why he is over with a lot of fans, myself included
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Clemson should've stopped turning the ball over" Dana Holgorsen when asked about running up the score in the Orange Bowl
by WVPiratesfan on Jan 27, 2012 12:25 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Definitely the hardest working guy in the last cycle
of last WM up to this one. Miz was the guy before that.
Getting himself over no matter what. Deserves to win MITB. I think this Sunday would be too soon. Perhaps even a Rumble win.
#HEEL is the best catch phrase in years too.
It took me a while for Dolphy to grow on me but to me a name is just a name. It doesn’t really define the character. The person who is busting his ass weekly does. There are two reasons I think people don’t look at Dolphy as one of the better heels even though there hasn’t been one with his size in years. It’s refreshing to see someone not getting something simply do to association with certain higher ups. The two reasons that come to mind are:
1) WWE needs to get Vickie away from him. I mean her voice is annoying enough but when she speaks before him just to build him up makes him look like he’s not look as strong with his promos. Him and Thwagger would be a good team if he just didn’t talk.
2) The US or IC titles let alone the mid card division or lack thereof hasn’t been relevant in years. WWE has put so much effort into trying to make the WWE title the one to want, they neglected the two that meant so much at one time to want. But it doesn’t really say much because the WWE title has been so distorted and hasn’t meant that much in years. Whenever someone outside of WWE has made a tremendous accomplishment, you don’t see then holding the WWE title when the was to represent the champion they feel like they are. They use the WHC. The so called creative who made look like some shit over the years hasn’t completely killed the perception of people wanting it. The fact that there has been more than just the same person holding it nearly 10x already shows they are willing to give others a chance to become something more and not being repetitive. Its’ tiresome seeing Cena “overcome the odds” all the damn time, it doesn’t give room for anyone else to represent the company cause WWE doesn’t give them the chance to do so. Besides there are far more legends who’s held the WHC than the WWE title no matter how bad they want you to believe that Cena is todays hero. The only reason why people would even fathom in wanting to be WWE champion is simply cause its’ on the most watched show. But if you put the WHC on there, you’d have the same results. It’s nice to have someone like Punk being champ but if you really want to turn heads, put the title on Dolph….and not just for less than a day. If you put anyone in the right situation and build feuds better than the debacles that’s been going on over the last 6 months, you can get anyone interested but seeing that the WWE fanbase follow blindly at anything WWE does, I don’t expect them to do anything that would garner the change myself and many want to see. Just one more thing and even though he’s a complete douche now but years ago when Hogan was comparing the WWF and IWGP titles, he called the WWF one a toy which pretty much sums up the way that it’s being used now and days.
you're own stupidity will lead you to your own downfall
by congestedthoughts on Jan 27, 2012 10:15 PM EST reply actions
This is how I feel about mosty modern WWE charcaters
and the nonsensical way pro wrestling fans jealousy guarding him for no apparent reason just reinforces the way I feel about both parties.
Arm chair GM. Mod/contributing writer at SBN Jets blog GGN.
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Agree on most parts
I really want to like Ziggler more then I do. Its kind of like when your friend tells you about band and how incredible it is. You listen to it and you actively try to find things to like about it, but it just isn’t as good as its made out to be. Ziggler is a great worker and I do love how he sells, but I think his gimmick now is just too wishy washy.
He’s a show off. Okay,,,but what is he showing off? That he can do sit ups? He can do a head stand? He isn’t wearing any gold so what’s he showing off? I would of liked it if he stuck to the I am Perfection persona. Also #Heel isn’t subtle. Too much breaking of the fourth wall makes the show unwatchable. I don’t mind he wants us to know he’s a heel. I like the fact he knows hes “the bad guy” and acts like it, but #Heel sort of feels like a cheap pop to cash in on overselling twitter by the WWE.
I really want to like Ziggler more, and it feels like hes just a tweak or two away from breaking into the main event scene with staying power. I know he’s a heel, but what kind of heel? Cheater, manipulator, or loop hole artist? I know he’s supposed to be booed but why? He’s a showoff but if he doesn’t have a belt, theres no reason I care to see him get beat. If he doesn’t screw a face out of a win, I don’t really care how many sit ups he can do in the ring. Give me a reason to hate Ziggler other then he’s a showoff.
by Ashcampbell on Jan 30, 2012 3:24 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
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