Kane is Back: It's Not Something to Celebrate
via down-for-the-count.webs.com
Author's Note: I don't actually hate Kane on a personal basis, I don' t even hate Mark Henry on a personal basis. I just don't want to ever see either of them wrestle again, especially not in high profile matches. It's WWE's fault that this reality has not come to fruition. My real blame for all this lies squarely at the feat of Vince McMahon, who once again refuses to give new opportunities and steady pushes when not doing so would be inexcusably stupid.
In my many rants against Mark Henry, I've made my hatred of other wrestlers known as well. Fortunately, WWE has either fired most of the guys I really hated (The Great Khali, Vladimir Koslov), or completely given up on them (Kevin Nash, Mason Ryan, The Miz), the only real exception to this in the present time has been Mark Henry, who's been getting the push of his career in the past year, and Kane, who was out on leave for most of the year, to my eternal gratefulness.
Until this Monday.
Of all the things WWE doesn't need any more of, its giving another huge push to an immobile, 40+ year old hoss getting another huge push at the expense of a tremendously talented roster that could really use a chance to showcase their abilities. Kane is the epitomy of everything WWE should stop being about, but just because a basic nature of itself has been terrible almost never means that WWE will actually give up on it. Why should anyone complain about the Kane's of the world when WWE has always been about hosses, storytelling, characters, and "Sports Entertainment" over 420's, Pheonix Splashes, and technical wrestlers?
Because everything about the "Sports Entertainment" mentality is a sham, Kane being good is fraudulent, and people need to stop accepting it.
In the first place, the first mentality that people need to get past is that there's even a difference between pro-wrestling and "Sports Entertainment." They're synonymous. Vince McMahon just uses the term "Sports Entertainment" to cheat athletic commissions, and avoid taxes he doesn't want to pay. Suggesting that someone may not be a good wrestler with a lot of "MOVEZ," but it's okay because they're a good "Sports Entertainer" is meaningless: not just because nobody in the world outside of a couple hundred backyarders cares about "MOVEZ," so bringing the concept up as a justification for shitty wrestling is meaningless, but because saying someones a bad wrestler but good "Sports Entertainer" is like saying someones a crappy actor but a great movie star.
But not everyone gets to being great at something by working at everything the same way. Many people become great in spite of their deficiencies in certain categories of their profession. Keith Richards, for instance, is not that gifted on the guitar from a technical standpoint, but makes up for it due to his powerful tone, catchy, innovative riffs, open-G Tuning in a profession where 90% of players stick with Standard, ease of melding with his partner guitarists such as Ronnie Wood and the very gifted Mick Taylor, and willingness to listen and study the old blues and rock records with devotion. Keith Richards is considered by many to be the greatest guitarist of all time for these reasons, so why can't Kane be considered great just because he's limited in terms of mobility and moves?
While it's true that I'd be foolish saying no great wrestler ever got by on a limited moveset and mobility, these are not Kane's main problems. Kane is so limited in every aspect other than "being tall" and "having muscles" that to even calculate his positive areas, one has to reach down to a practically quantum level of analysis. There are numerous reasons as to why people tend to ignore this, but they're reasons that have nothing to do with anything Kane contributes.
- Kane is a star from the glory years, and people always pop for those guys. The only reason this happened was because Kane happened to be born on a fortunate year with the genes necessary to make him tall and muscular. Not because he's special in any way.
- Kane's never been jobbed out at all. Sure, he loses to the top guys, but he's almost always protected in some way when facing anyone who's not at the very highest level, and even when facing top guys, he often scores up victories he didn't deserve (last year against Undertaker, in 2006 against Edge), or loses while still being protected (last year against Edge where Kane lost the title without getting pinned, in 2004 against Benoit where Kane lost via fluke roll-up). It's only because of his height, muscles, and the fact that he was around during the mid to late 90's that he's afforded this privileged, not because he's good.
I know people still have their defeses as to why they like Kane, but they don't hold up at all when put under even the most rudimentary scrutiny. Among the most popular:
Kane plays a great character.
The Kane character is probably the least consistent, and worst written character in WWE history. It isn't even that hard to portray. For the first six years of his career as Kane, Glenn Jacobs didn't even have to bother making facial expressions. In fact, the only things he has to do is stand around, hit people, look freakish, grunt, and have a scowl: he doesn't even have to change up this routine weather he's a face or heel. Literally every limited big man got by on this.
Kane's pretty good for a big man.
By what standard? By the standards of just about every good big man, Kane comes up short. Barry Windham, Sting, Stan Hansen, Dr. Death, Jumbo Tsuruta, Takeshi Morishima, The Undertaker, Vader, and Giant Baba were all around Kane's size, and every single one of those guys is or was better than Kane at almost any point in their careers (except post '94 Sting).
Sure, those guys are some mighty stiff competition. But if Kane's even supposed to be considered good, than where are his good matches? Almost all Kane matches have been irredeemably awful by any standard, and while there's probably not a man alive who could've dragged a watchable match out of some of Kane's opponents, Kane still has the dubious distinctions of crapping the bed when facing the likes of Edge, Rey Mysterio, and especially Undertaker. Good wrestlers don't consistently have bad matches with those three guys.
Kane had good matches with Shawn Michaels, Chris Benoit, and Kurt Angle.
Everyone had good matches with those three guys. It really wasn't that special that Kane was able to have good matches with the three best workers in WWE history. The thing is, Kane's "good" matches with Michaels, Benoit, and Angle were all some of the worst matches those three had been putting out during the time periods they faced Kane, even when they were facing opponents who aren't even considered "good" workers. In particular, Kurt Angle and Benoit were hitting four star plus matches at every PPV they were on during 2002 and 2004 respectively, unitl they got in there with Kane.
Kane might be better now that they've given him this new opportunity.
He really won't be. Kane was born in 1967, before the first Moon Landing. He's been given push after push against some of the best wrestlers WWE has ever had, including Steve Austin, Triple H, Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, Chris Benoit, and Kurt Angle. Kane was given a huge title reign on Smackdown last year that failed to produce even one watchable match, and did it at the expense of the entire Smackdown roster.
There's an outside chance that Kane will have one or two decent matches in this new run now that he's lost some weight and healed up his injuries; but it won't be worth the energy WWE is going to invest in him when they could invest the same energy in a guy like Alberto Del Rio, Wade Barrett, Sheamus, Jack Swagger, or at least a dozen other guys either on the roster, stuck in FCW, or stuck dancing for nickels in TNA, Mexico, Japan, or the Indy's, and produce far better results. WWE might even struck lucky, and find another star like they did with CM Punk. Giving another huge push to Kane is just going to keep WWE stuck in the same rut they've been in and out of over the last decade, and the fact that people are celebrating this circling of the artistic drain in droves is just encouraging a problem that badly needs to be exsanguinated from WWE's bloodstream.
In short, please stop celebrating the upcoming huge Kane push, or I will be forced to publish another post that will consist of nothing but Kane vs. Undertaker matches as a reminder to both the fans and WWE.
Author's Update: In the time since I've posted this editorial, Dave Meltzer revealed via the Observer that the primary goal of Kane's return is to break the mask-wearing world record at Wrestlemania XXVIII WWE originally planned to break with Sin Cara vs. Rey Mysterio. This would lead one to believe that Kane's Wrestlemania match will likely be very high profile, possibly even a match with Undertaker at Wrestlemania.
If there is anyone with any political power in WWE who somehow stumbles across this message, whatever you do, do not put Kane in a high profile match at Wrestelmania. The fact that WWE deemed it necessary to give this huge push to a mask wearing guy, but didn't have the balls to commit to giving the mask to somebody who has a future is just a further symptom of the companies creative bankruptcy. It's not too late to stop this potential disaster if somebody speaks out.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Cageside Seats readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Cageside Seats editors or staff.
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Opinions of a Mark
I don’t care. Seeing Kane come out made me happy. I enjoy being happy. One might even say being happy makes me happy. I’m pretty happy being happy.
Yes, we get it. Kane is not the greatest wrestler. Hell, he’s mediocre at best. Understood. You wanna know something? Kristen Stewart is a horrible actress. But she still popular as all hell. There are plenty of screaming little girls who want to be her. Hell, I would love to tap that emo ass. And even with all the Fair to Flairs, Art of Wrestlings, and Grantland pieces about how beautiful wrestling is and how it’s history is so intertwined with Americana, you wanna know what WWE is? It’s Twilight. It’s dumb, ill-thought out, inconstant, and relays a horrible message for those watching. But god damnit we love it. We know we shouldn’t, but we do. And yes the actors involve sometimes suck. And yes it’s built of shaky premises and weak characters. And by god the direction it goes in sometimes is absolutely infuriating. But god damnit this is our thing. This is what we love, what we are passionate about, what we mark out over.
I wish this could be buried in the fan posts, but we all know it will get promoted cause everyone loves a good troll. But i will not let you assume your attacks on us fans are welcomed. If you want realism, go watch UFC. If you want great wrestling, go watch Ring of Honor. If you want to see something different, go to a local indy. If you want to bitch and complain about Vince, then by gawd come on down. Because there is nothing more that WWE fans love than hating on the big guy. But don’t you dare come here and call us stupid for enjoying this. Don’t you dare believe you will convince anyone here that we are wrong for loving what we love. Don’t you dare think you are smarter than us because you see the light, Plato. This is our cave, and god fucking damnit it’s comfy here.
by C. J. Bradford on Dec 13, 2011 9:07 AM EST reply actions 13 recs
you wanna know what WWE is? It’s Twilight. It’s dumb, ill-thought out, inconstant, and relays a horrible message for those watching. But god damnit we love it. We know we shouldn’t, but we do.
If this is honestly your worldview, I almost pity you.
People who watch Twilight don’t watch it because they know its horrible, they watch it because they believe its awesome. Twilight fans feel no guilt over their enjoyment of the product, if they did, they’d give up watching.
Sure, you get the occasional morbidly curious viewer watching Stephanie Meyer’s atrocity for the Battlefield Earth-esque aspects, but the thing is, the people who watch it for that reason are both entertained by the perverse awfulness, and spend just as much time watching or reading things of that genre that are actually good.
WWE isn’t bad enough to inflict unintentional comedy most of the time, often, it’s just dreary, joylessly terrible, and rather than only possessing terrible screenplay and godawful actors, WWE possesses enough high quality talents, production abilities, and minds to where it would never need to put on a bad show for any reason ever. Not to mention, whereas Twilight is one of dozens of movies to be seen in a major cinema across the country every year, WWE is, for most people, the only source of new professional wrestling they have easy access to. WWE is the only hope for professional wrestling as a whole to ever be successful or respected, and they’re flushing everything they could be down the toilet. It’s completely unacceptable, and if you honestly feel this way about WWE, you really don’t have a reason to watch.
Don’t you dare believe you will convince anyone here that we are wrong for loving what we love.
This isn’t what people love. Kane got the exact same push last year. He was beating everybody, he beat Undertaker three times in a row, he main evented a PPV over Cena’s match, and was the complete and total focus of his brand.
Everyone hated it. The buyrates were awful, the ratings were abysmal, zero merchandise was sold, and almost everybody on the Smackdown roster had to sacrifice their heat to prop him up. It didn’t work at all, it completely devalued what little integrity was left in the Smackdown world title, and everyone wanted Kane to go away.
It’s nothing new that people are ignoring this. Fans of anything are willing to put up with almost unlimited bullshit on the off-chance that the product they love will become good again only for the fanbase to gradually chip away until all that’s left from the once mighty iceberg of fanatics is a broken refrigerator of human misery waiting in vain for the temperature to drop.
You’re not stupid for waiting to give something a chance, you’re stupid for falling for the exact same trick over and over again.
You honestly think the majority of teenage/adult Twilight fans take the franchise seriously? You must have an undeveloped sense of irony if you don’t understand why people watch crap (WWE included for the most part).
I’ve always thought of pro-wrestling as a take it or leave it thing. Maybe that doesn’t make me a hardcore fan, but when there’s been periods I haven’t enjoyed I’ve stopped watching until they blow over. Maybe you should take a break.
I also I think there’s falling for the trick and allow yourself to fall for the trick. I allow myself to fall for the tricks and go along with it because this is simple viewing and a humorous reprieve from real life.
by The Buke on Dec 13, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You honestly think the majority of teenage/adult Twilight fans take the franchise seriously?
http://www.twifans.com/group/cullenism
"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
Ugh
What a massive fail
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 14, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
I watch the twilight movies just because of how awful they are
it’s hilarious to see just how much the producers, with their millions of dollars, can shit the bed and make every movie worse then the last. I have watched them all with a group of primarily straight male friends solely because it’s so bad it’s good. I watch WWE for many of the same reasons, it’s a guilty pleasure. I do not expect Shakespeare, hell, I don’t even expect Mike “let’s blow even more shit up this time” Bay. Good, Stupid fun is all I personally want or need from my Pro Wrestli… I mean, Sports Entertainment.
For the record I am a 23 yr old male who grew up watching the attitude era, and going back, yes there was plenty of bad wrestling all around, but the WWF made it work and people bought into it like never before or since. The WWE bringing back masked Kane is just yet another attempt to recapture that old magic. If it works out for the better, great. If it doesn’t, maybe in a couple years we can all look back and laugh/cringe at how terribad of an idea it was
by rice rice baby on Dec 13, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
It's not the same though.
WWE is the only easily accessable source of new pro wrestling, if WWE dies, the whole industry dies, when the only hope for an industry’s future is producing terrible, unwatchable television that’s only entertaining for the unitntentional comedy, it’s something to be concerned over.
Even then, I don’t find WWE to be so bad it’s good most of the time. WWE being bad is often just plain bad. Gruesome, ugly, unwatchable, unfunny bad. The fact that the fate of the entire industry is in the hands of WWE’s sinking monopoly is not something to be celebrating or defending.
I get it.. you’re the guy who thinks WWe is too big to fail. Let me clue you in. If the US had let the big auto makers crash & burn what would have come out of the fire is new inventive ideas. Things would have evolved. You are in fact propping them up because you want the big company not to close or crash. in the fire of WWe will be new ideas.. look at WcW.. it closed & we got TnA.. nothing to brag about today because they didn’t learn their lessons. You think if WWe dies all of wrestling dies & you couldn’t be further from the truth. If there is a market for something.. then some Paul Heyman type will come in & give them the “service” that is being asked for. Its all about evolving.. but by propping things up & living in a belief that things are too big to fail then you are actually helping keep the status quo.
by Rawuncutnxrated on Dec 14, 2011 4:36 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
There are a wide variety of healthy car companies that reach a wide range of individuals in the U.S. alone.
WWE and TNA are the only nationally syndicated wrestling shows that reach a wide range of people, and TNA doesn’t count because nobody watches iMPACT, and even less people buy the PPV’s.
It isn’t the same thing as WCW, ECW, WCCW, or AWA, back when those promotions were around, there were other major pro-wrestling promotions to fall back on when each one of them went belly up in the U.S. alone. For all intents and purposes, WWE is the alpha and omega of U.S. wrestling in 2011, and seeing that professional wrestling is a non-essential service, there’d be no reason for any network to plug another pro wrestling promotion on their airwaves after WWE fails, because in their eyes, WWE’s death in popularity is the death of wrestling’s popularity.
As much as I hate Vince McMahon’s directions over the past decade, WWE has to survive for wrestling to have a future within at least the next 100 years, barring a major fluke.
I don’t care. Seeing Kane come out made me happy. I enjoy being happy. One might even say being happy makes me happy. I’m pretty happy being happy.
This is one of the most transparent cases of circular logic I’ve ever seen a human being conjure up. You can’t just be happy because being happy makes you happy, you have to have a reason for it, even a shitty reason would be better than this.
Why is it Kane makes you happy? Are you looking forward to him having a match with anyone? Do you want to buy a PPV with Kane as the headliner in a 20 minute match? Do you think that there’s anything a 44 year old guy who’s never had anything better than a decent match in his life still has left to offer? If you like the unstoppable badass heel, why do you want it to be Kane who’s pushed as that guy as opposed to someone younger, more mobile, and with an actual future who gets the chance to steamroll the roster?
The fact that you didn’t sight even a single tangible reason as to why you’re eager to see Kane means that you have put zero thought into this post. The very least you could’ve done was link me to a Kane singles match from the past six years that was up to the standards of maybe a good Cena match.
not gonna lie, but you tend to make yourself seem like your better than everyone else...
its between you and Dashing Rachel of who I hate seeing a fan post from the most. At least while she comes up with crap that John Cena’s youngest fans can come up with, you write research-style papers on little tid bits and then criticize anyone who comments on it? Sorry but jump back on your high horse and be better than everyone else.
by DFreshMMA on Dec 13, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"You can’t just be happy because being happy makes you happy, you have to have a reason for it, even a shitty reason would be better than this."
This is my favorite line I’ve ever read on this blog.
"I'm a little worried about being a slut"
~ Bobby Hill
He's basically dictated what can and can't make someone happy.
Newsflash, he’s not you and just because you don’t enjoy something doesn’t make it wrong.
It’s fake wrestling, whatever makes someone mark out and feel happy is the entire point of the product. But please do go on telling people what makes them happy, and what makes them stupid for thinking they like something, when they clearly don’t. They just haven’t run it past you first and been reasoned with properly. It makes me laugh.
"I'm a little worried about being a slut"
~ Bobby Hill
by Chris Hines on Dec 13, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He didn't say what he actually likes about Kane.
He just said he was happy because being happy made him happy. At the very least he could’ve pointed me to a Kane match or Kane feud or Kane angle or Kane promo he thinks makes Kane talented. What Bradford presented was nothing more than circular logic.
Dude...
I think my eyebrows got singed off…
by TheAngryApe on Dec 14, 2011 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
Hey Triple Asterisk
go lose a buried alive match or something….
please.
by Dannie Ray on Dec 13, 2011 10:23 AM EST reply actions 18 recs
At least he can make an intelligent comment
Which puts him one up on you :|
Gillberg...Gillberg...Gillberg...
by GoForthAndDie on Dec 13, 2011 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
No
There’s just no reason to be a dick here.
Gillberg...Gillberg...Gillberg...
by GoForthAndDie on Dec 14, 2011 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
Dannie Ray makes a comment about how Asterisk should be buried alive...
Cagesider with executioner avatar called “Go Forth and Die” complains.
Priceless lulz were had! I’m really enjoying this thread!
by Mr. Sunny Days on Dec 15, 2011 12:57 AM EST up reply actions
Good boy!
You’ve learned how to insult someone online.
Next week we’ll see if we can get an intelligent post out of you.
doesn’t hold breath
Gillberg...Gillberg...Gillberg...
by GoForthAndDie on Dec 15, 2011 3:19 AM EST up reply actions
Wasn't insulting you.
Was laughing at the irony of your name vs Dannie Ray’s comment. Still funny.
by Mr. Sunny Days on Dec 15, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
Kane's Return
Even though you have some good arguments, overall it’s a good thing Kane is back. I don’t think he needs to have some crazy world title push, but he could help elevate some of the younger talent.
He’s got a following, and is more mainstream than nearly all the wrestlers on the roster (minus Cena, Undertaker, Big Show, and maybe Jericho). I know some people who know nothing of wrestling, but like Kane. His character is relevant to a wide range of fans, kids like him or are terrified of him and yet he is still bad ass enough for older viewers to cheer him on.
Two quick side-notes; he does help with merchandising, I’ve see him as a top seller for years, seen it first hand with action figures. Secondly, I witnessed Henry vs. Kane at a house show, and it was one of the worst/slowest matches I ever saw…
"Oldest ride, longest line!" - Ric Flair
by Doors Hate MMA Fighters on Dec 13, 2011 10:51 AM EST reply actions
I could live with Kane's return if I knew he was helping somebody who needed it.
I just know from last night that isn’t happening.
Kane’s next feud will be with John Cena, it’ll be the central focus of the show its on, the matches will be really bad, and nothing will be generated from it. Cena and Kane shouldn’t be facing each other, they should be facing one of the dozens of people in WWE who’s desperately trying to have a crack at the glass ceiling. It wouldn’t be so bad if a Cena/Kane match could actually generate a buyrate or sell a gate, but anyone with half a brain knows that it’ll generate the same number their PPV’s always get.
Then you have the fact that judging by the new gear, WWE has the potential to be planning for another Undertaker/Kane match, maybe even a Wrestlemania match. This match must never be allowed to take place. Every Undertaker/Kane match has been awful, and considering Undertaker’s next Wrestlemania match is probably the biggest match WWE can run this side of a Steve Austin or Brock Lesnar return, wasting it on Kane is something I cannot tolerate.
The “just wait and see” defense only works if the people in charge have a consistent track record of delivering on their promises. It’s why I’m forgiving of things such as the Season 4 Finale of Sons of Anarchy, because Kurt Sutter has consistently delivered on the storylines he’s built up. WWE doesn’t have that luxury anymore, and until they can get back to a record of consistent quality, there’s no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt for what looks to be a terrible angle.
I like Cena vs Kane
If they go this route of course. Neither clogging up the title picture, and still a high profile match up. I don’t see how this is a poor use of the talent.
Twitter @i_c_u_hater
Http://BBDreaming.com
by Thats It For you! on Dec 13, 2011 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t see how this is a poor use of the talent.
The matches will be very bad, the program will take up a lot of time that could be devoted to helping somebody break through the glass ceiling, neither Cena nor Kane will be any more over than they already are after the program ends, and nobody on earth will fork over 50 dollars for a Cena/Kane match.
How’s that a good use of talent?
Unless you count the actual Royal Rumble match, the only matches I’ve shelled out $50 for was the last two Wrestlemanias, because of the Undertaker. WWE isn’t boxing, or even the UFC. They have to sell you on at least half the card before you’ll hand them cash, you can’t promote wrestling on the main event alone.
by The so-called Beautiful on Dec 13, 2011 8:57 PM EST up reply actions
They have to sell you on at least half the card before you’ll hand them cash, you can’t promote wrestling on the main event alone.
This isn’t even close to true. WWE sold their first million dollar plus PPV buys for a show in three years by the mere virtue of having The Rock make his first big appearance in seven years.
If WWE is doing a big angle that doesn’t make you want to shell out money to see the match, WWE is doing a shitty job at promoting the match.
This Rock stuff is an exception and you know it.
by The so-called Beautiful on Dec 14, 2011 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
It isn't.
Back in 2005 when Batista first faced Triple H, WWE generated its first 1,000,000 domestic buys from a PPV in 14 years solely for that match.
Back in WCW in 1997, WCW generated its highest buyrate ever by putting Hogan vs. Sting on the card, and literally nothing else of value.
In 2007, WWE generated its highest PPV buyrate ever because the loser of the Vince McMahon/Donald Trump match would get his head shaved.
In 1984, WCCW sold out the Sportatorium every week so people could see the Von Erichs get their revenge on the Freebirds.
In 1988, WCW generated a record rating with Ric Flair vs. Sting.
In 1988, WWE generated over 2 million buys with Wrestlemania IV despite the fact that the only match announced for the card was Hogan vs. Andre.
The reason why this doesn’t happen more often is because WWE runs its high profile matches into the ground, and overexposes most of their top names, so by the time most of them role around, no one gives a shit. Bad booking doesn’t make basic laws of promotion an exception
Wrestlemania IV did NOT do 2 million buys or anything close WWE has never come close to doing 2 million buys. No wrestling PPV hit 1 million until Wrestlemania X-7.
The only PPV event ever to top 2 million buys was De La Hoya-Mayweather at somewhere from 2.15 to 2.4 million. 2.15 was the early #, 2.4 is listed some places now but I can’t find a good source.
Tyson-Holyfield II came close with 1.99 million, as did Tyson-Lewis with 1.97 million. UFC 100 is the #4 PPV of all time at 1.6 million. Then there are a bunch of boxing shows.
by ThisOneGoesToEleven on Dec 25, 2011 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
Triple H is better at everything than Kane.
I don’t give a shit about politics or being a nice guy, I want wrestlers to put on good matches, or at least have the chance to put on good matches. Kane has never done that, and its why putting this effort into giving him another huge push is a waste of time on WWE’s part.
I don't disagree with you
Kane does nothing for me, he’s pretty much just a name. But I don’t see how people feel anything for HHH. This has nothing to do with backstage politics. I can’t stand his mic work, can’t stand his matches, and can’t stand his character. He does nothing for me, just like Kane.
Good post.
I'll defend myself once and then I'm done with this shit
In order:
Having seen every Twilight movie with different girls each time, I can honestly tell you my statement is correct. The majority of people I know are aware of its stupidity. Yes, there are some who live and die by the emotional turns of a sparkly vampire and emo girl. But there are people who believe wrestling is real. There are wrestling marks and twilight marks. There are wrestling smarks and twilight smarks. I would argue, proportionally, the numbers are similar.
I wasn’t aware you were living in ‘96. It is easier then ever to find other forms of wrestling. RoH, Chikara, and plenty of other indies ship DVDs and iPPVs. There are other options out there. And it’s pretty easy to find them
I’m not excited for just his matches. Yeah, they will be sub-par to crap. I don’t care. That’s the entire point. I watch Ziggler and Danielson and Punk for their matches. I watch Henry and Kane and Show for the characters, the spots, the moments. I love Ochocinco and Tebow not because they play their positions well. I love them for the moments of excitement. There is enough there to have both. It is not a zero sum game.
Yes it’s circular logic! That is the point. Something makes me happy. Why question it? Why should I deny myself joy? Why should I refuse to be a mark? This isn’t a wait and see attitude. This is a I’m gonna enjoy this now attitude.
You have no clue what their plans are. Maybe they’ll go Kane/Cena or Taker. Maybe they will do something compleatly different. I will judge each moment as it happens. Maybe in the future it will suck. But I’m not living in the future. Last night was an exciting moment. I enjoyed it as such. I could easily be a Chicken Little, but where is the fun in that?
All I ever read from you is nay saying and disappointment. It wouldn’t be so bad but you are in every post, every comment, every debate. We get it. You don’t like this. Stop telling us. We don’t care. We couldn’t give two shits. If you don’t like it, STOP WATCHING. You failed to address my points relating to that. Go to Ring of Honor. Go to MMA. Go anywhere. Just go away. You are bitter and angry and cannot enjoy the WWE anymore. The show isn’t aimed at you. Get out of the relationship and let us enjoy what it offers us.
I’ll repeat. If you do not enjoy the show, stop watching.
If you wish to complain about aspects, that’s fine. Lord knows I hate parts of the show. But I walk away happy that I saw it. If you cannot do that anymore, then it’s time to move on.
And with that I’m done. I feel like 2Pac on Hit ’em Up.
You ain’t even on my level dog. I’ll let my homies go after you.
by C. J. Bradford on Dec 13, 2011 12:24 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
Like the Tupac shout out. Talk about 96.. oh well. I cannot stand Kane myself. He’s been the same person for 15 years but I like that they finally did something different & took him off my tv for a while. Its not in stone that he’s going to beef with Cena.. he might have laid out Cena to send a message to Henry. Which is pretty odd.. Show took out Henry because Del Rio took Show out. Henry comes back & takes out Show, Kane, and Khali. Kane comes back & attacks Cena.. but they make a point to show Henry’s fear. So I think they go with Henry v Kane after TLC.
by Rawuncutnxrated on Dec 14, 2011 4:47 AM EST up reply actions
I think this is right
in regards to setting up a future Henry vs. Kane angle. Laying out Cena I think might have been to have a bigger effect than if he came out and laid out a mid-card guy.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 14, 2011 8:35 AM EST up reply actions
I haven't been watching, or giving WWE any money, in a long ass time.
The last PPV I bought was MitB, I haven’t watched RAW or Smackdown since WM 27, and I don’t intend to watch again until WWE makes it worth my time.
Not that it matters anyway, because you probably think my criticism is invalid for complaining about something I don’t watch anymore.
I'm curious
If you don’t watch then why do you care? I understand this is the Internet and all but I don’t sit at home and critique dramas/soap operas that I don’t watch because, ya know, I don’t watch.
by TMadeBurner on Dec 14, 2011 2:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 4 recs
It’s obvious you care. You’re one the most passionate here, writing hundreds of long thought out posts about a subject that’s very dear to you. However, you’re wasting your time and energy on the wrong people. Internet fans are not who you should focus on to attempt to improve wrestling.
You should try to get involved in the industry and make a genuine difference. You love the sport with feverish zeal and headstrong as you are, I’m pretty sure you could get in and get people to listen to you. I’m not being sarcastic or ironic here. You have enough willful energy that I’m sure if you knocked on enough doors with solid proposals you’d get in.
I really appreciate the love you have for wrestling, the desire you have to see it survive and flourish in next decades. Rechannel that energy towards working in the business.
by Mr. Sunny Days on Dec 15, 2011 1:31 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
I'm going to piggyback on this...
You know the business inside & out. You love wrestling & want it to get better…then help it get better. :)
Get a job in the business and fix it. Every week, while we’re going the RAW liveblog, I keep a notebook of things I don’t like, creative-wise and I write down things that I think should happen…or storylines that should be implemented. And once a month, I give that notebook to my friend who’s training to get into the indies. And he reads it and tells me what HE thinks would work (as a wrestler) and what wouldn’t work. And maybe…once he gets into an indy fed, he might be able to pass my name along as someone with creative skills.
Here’s the deal and I’ll give it to you, straight-up, real talk. Like a lot of people have said, you’re a VERY knowledgeable person. I’d be willing to learn from you…if you had the capacity to let people like what they want to like without having to give a laundry list of reasons. If you toned down the latent antagonism, your chances of getting people to listen to you will multiply exponentially. Not everyone wants to debate. You need to understand that, acknowledge it and respect it.
And for the love of God, Mary and My Little Pony…cool it with the “circular logic” attacks.
by TheAngryApe on Dec 15, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
"If you don’t like it, STOP WATCHING."
We’ve had several conversations about this. This is a dumb thing to say, and it is not allowed on Cageside Seats. There’s nothing wrong with someone disliking a product that they want to see better and say as much.
I disagree with Asterisk about most everything, but telling him to stop watching because he disagrees with us is asinine.
Sting is about 6' 4"
not near 7 foot. You’re argument is invalid. Also can we just see where this goes before we bury his return.
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Back in my day we killed five hookers and thought nothing of it" Craig James
That's the same excuse people use every time WWE or TNA does something stupid.
Last year when Kane was world champion, people said to “wait and see” where it was going, that WWE had a plan. To the surprise of nobody who’d actually been paying attention to the way WWE’s been run for the past several years, they had no plan, and the only things people were rewarded for by “waiting and seeing” were three amazingly bad matches with Undertaker, with Kane always winning, bad matches with Rey Mysterio, with Kane winning, and bad matches with Edge, ending in Kane losing at a 4-way TLC match so he didn’t have to eat the pin to end his title reign.
If WWE had a consistent track-record of delivering well on their payoffs, “waiting and seeing” would be a valid excuse, but since WWE hasn’t been consistently great in a decade, this philosophy needs to die until they get back on track.
Why, why, why, why???????
You may not like Kane but he’s been OVER for well over a decade! Mark Henry and Kane aren’t stopping young guys from stepping up in WWE. I don’t get this hatred of two big men that are actually helping the company, it doesn’t make any sense.
Freedom is a road seldom traveled by the multitudes...
Both Mark Henry and Kane are steamrolling the roster.
Both Mark Henry and Kane are getting huge, unrelenting pushes when the guys who really needed WWE to put their faith in them, guys like Wade Barrett, Sheamus, and Alberto Del Rio, get jobbed into oblivion. At least a dozen people on the WWE roster alone are more deserving of a consistent push than Henry and Kane, but they aren’t getting it because Vince McMahon is still acting like a little bitch over Brock Lesnar and Bobby Lashley leaving.
And what evidence do you have that Henry and Kane are over? The PPV buyrates for the shows they’ve headlined while champion have been some of the worst numbers WWE has ever pulled, ratings aren’t that great, and Kane hasn’t been a big merch seller since he had that mask the first time, and even then he only sold a lot because he was being booked to steamroll a roster he was inferior to.
Pop size is not indicitive of quality unless the guys are getting pops at the level of, or just shy of, the likes of Hogan and Rock. Henry and Kane get the same level of pops the Godfather got back in 1999, and the Godfather never sold a PPV, never increased ratings, and was probably the worst wrestler of all time.
LOL when is the last time Wade Barrett or Sheamus lost a match?
stop grasping for things to make an argument. You say you don’t watch then you tell me that Barrett and Sheamus get jobbed out, based on that statement I can say that you don’t watch at all or have no clue what you’re talking about.
Please list me the buyrates of the PPV shows that Mark Henry or Kane has headlined as Champions. Please find me one PPV where either Mark Henry was the main event.
Your borderline insane diatribes are getting to be useless and pointless but again for you. While Cena and CM Punk headline Raw’s declining ratings, Mark Henry is headlining Smackdown’s rising ratings. Last time for you. Prior to Henry becoming champion SD was AVG 1.7 ratings, After he became champion SD AVG 2.01 rating. In your reasoning that is just coincidence and not fact. Right???
As far as Kane goes here is some evidence of his drawing ability since you want to compare him to Hogan and other you perceive as being better than him;
As per Dave Meltzer of the Wrestling Observer
1998 – 1. Steve Austin (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. Undertaker; 3. Kane; 4. Mick Foley; 5. The Rock; 6. Bill Goldberg; 7. Hulk Hogan; 8. HHH; 9. Sting; 10. Randy Savage
1999 – 1. The Rock (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. Steve Austin; 3. HHH; 4. Big Show; 5. Kane; 6. Undertaker; 7. Keiji Muto; 8. Bill Goldberg; 9. Ric Flair; 10. Kevin Nash
2000 – 1. The Rock (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. HHH; 3. Kurt Angle; 4. Kane and Chris Benoit; 6. X-Pac; 7. Undertaker; 8. Road Dogg; 9. Naoya Ogawa; 10. Kensuke Sasaki and Chris Jericho
2001 – 1. Steve Austin; 2. The Rock; 3. Kurt Angle; 4. HHH; 5. Undertaker; 6. Chris Jericho; 7. Kane; 8. Kensuke Sasaki, Chris Benoit and Keiji Muto
In Kane’s prime time 4 years in the business his “dumb, boring, worthless, Vince McMahon created, non wrestling, no excitement character”, OUT DREW HOGAN, STING, FLAIR, NASH AND GOLDBERG IN 1998!!!
But hey dude you’re right Kane isn’t over, Henry isn’t over they mean nothing to wrestling they are just taking up space and ruining the careers of others because they are big and tall. Forget the actual numbers and the reality that fans are interested in them and like them or hate them, YOUR singular opinion of them is what matters the most.
Freedom is a road seldom traveled by the multitudes...
by Major on Dec 18, 2011 11:01 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Kane spent the entirety of 98-01 working with the biggest draws the business ever had in the biggest company the business ever saw, almost never lost any of his matches, and always looking completely dominant. It didn’t make his matches any less terrible, and it didn’t change the fact that the moment the company finally gave him the ball without those guys around in 2010, all his matches sucked, and the PPV buyrates were horrific, not that his matches were anything but horrible to begin with.
As for Henry, sure, Smackdown has made slight improvements in the ratings since WWE finally booked somebody to dominate the roster in a completely badass way, instead of pandering like with Cena, but the buyrates for the PPV’s Henry’s been on in the last several months have been some of the worst in WWE history. Not to mention that one of the reasons the ratings actually improved in the first place wasn’t because of Henry, but because WWE drafted Orton to Smackdown, when Smackdown had nobody the year before.
PPV buyrates with or without Kane have been in the shitter
Thats because of how the product of WWE wrestling is being presented. Not because of who is getting pushed.
Freedom is a road seldom traveled by the multitudes...
If Kane was any good, there would've been at least one buyrate for a PPV he main evented that wouldn't have been worse than last years.
He was a fresh face in the main event, held the belt for over six months, booked to dominate the roster, and had a three match series against the most over wrestler in the company. At some point, the Smackdown ratings should’ve improved, or the buyrates should’ve gone up.
They actively went down from the year before.
dude is there anyone you do like?
why even watch wrestling if you hate 95% of what happens?
Maslow's theory of higher needs does not apply to Patrick Willis. He only has two needs: tackling people and finding people to tackle.
by 49erLou on Dec 13, 2011 1:36 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Because I love wrestling and want it to be good.
When guys like Henry and Kane are pushed, wrestling isn’t good, and it makes me sad.
If WWE put the same level of dedication into pushing Alberto Del Rio and Sheamus earlier this year as they put into Mark Henry and Kane, they wouldn’t be circling the financial drain they’re in today.
They did push Sheamus
and now he’s back to the mid-card and according to your argument of why Mark Henry he should never get another push because that push failed
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Back in my day we killed five hookers and thought nothing of it" Craig James
by WVPiratesfan on Dec 13, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
They never gave Sheamus a serious push at any point in his career.
Just as it looked as if WWE was giving Sheamus a steady push, they’d have him look like a total bitch in both his title reigns. Keep in mind, Sheamus’ heel run ended this year after losing clean to all his opponents for months, being beaten in seconds by Triple H, losing clean to Evan Bourne, having his Wrestlemania match pulled from the card, and losing his Wrestlemania match to the Great Khali. WWE did everything in their power to kill Sheamus’ heat.
Contrast this with Kane and Mark Henry, who were both given serious pushes once they got their titles, and almost never made to look weak at any point. WWE never did anything like that for Sheamus, and pretending otherwise is foolish.
So killing a guys heat because they realize he isn't over with the fans isn't a failed push?
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Back in my day we killed five hookers and thought nothing of it" Craig James
by WVPiratesfan on Dec 13, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
That wasn't what happened.
WWE killed Sheamus’ heat before he had a chance to actually get over, and then blamed him on not getting good reactions.
It was still better than Bryan Danielson’s case, where he actually was over until they jobbed him out into oblivion and never had Cole stop verbally shitting on him, but it was still a shitty thing to do.
It’s entirely WWE’s fault that more people aren’t over, WWE never gives a steady push to anybody who isn’t an old standby unless said person gets pops so huge they have absolutely no choice but to push them (i.e. CM Punk, Jeff Hardy), it’s shitty booking, and not in any way the fault of the newer guys.
One man's "boring!" is another man's "awesome!"
It’s pretty hilarious that you’re so big on Sheamus and so down on Henry.
Henry is awful.
He can’t move, he can’t wrestle, he’s so heavy most of his opponents can’t properly execute their moves on him.
And in the end, WWE used Henry exactly the way I predicted. Henry wasn’t used to get anyone other than old standby’s over, all his matches sucked, and the buyrates for all his PPV’s were terrible. What was there to like?
You’ve said all of this nonsense, and most people seem to disagree with you. You’re incorrect, but that’s your right. Henry isn’t your cup of tea. Got it. We’re not going to go down this strange hate-filled alley again.
I was more commenting on your championing Sheamus as someone who is a great wrestler who deserves to get pushed. Sheamus bores the hell out of me.
However, I used to really dislike Henry, so it’s not out of question that I will come around on Sheamus once he ups his game or is used correctly at some point.
Kane is not the guy to use to make new main eventers. He’s never really been a main eventer himself so that doesn’t make much sense. HHH is the guy who is in a great place to do that, but instead he is wasting his talents in a pointless feud with Nash. I can only hope that HHH is smart enough to realize that he should be the one getting ADR or Ziggler or Barrett or Sheamus or others to that next level. But seeing how things went with the HHH/Punk feud, I don’t really see that happening.
As for Kane, he will probably be in the Raw main event scene for a little while as a heel because of the lack of main event heels on the brand. But then again, he isn’t a main event heel either and that will probably be very obvious by the time he takes Ziggler’s spot away from the Elimination Chamber match. And I can’t imagine Cena jobbing to Kane with the Cena vs Rock match on the horizon. What about Kane vs Punk? Eh, I’d rather see Punk fight Cena or Ziggler or Orton or Christian, etc. I don’t think a Punk/Kane feud would be good on the mic or in the ring.
I’m not really sure how I feel about Kane’s return. I enjoyed the moment of his return, but I don’t really look forward to him fighting anybody on the roster. And it does seem likely that this could hurt the growth of fresher heels on Raw.
And I don’t want to see Taker vs Kane at Mania either. I am done with that feud. Way done.
So ultimately I think Asterisk provided some good points to think about when it comes to the upside of Kane’s return. What is the upside? What is it exactly that you want to see Kane do from here that would be worthwhile and/or awesome?
I imagine that by the time ’Mania rolls around Kane might already be in a mid-card tag team with R-Truth called The Big Red Truth.
Kane is a JV-Undertake in that respect
Never had a memorable title run, but he’s been around forever and is somehow still over with the majority of fans.
by Jonathan Loesche on Dec 13, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
Kane's a star from the glory years, and has never really been jobbed out at all.
It’s no surprise whatsoever that a guy can retain heat with that at their side. The Godfather got pops back in those days, and the Godfather was probably the worst wrestler of all time.
So, tell me how you really feel
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 13, 2011 2:05 PM EST reply actions
I like this guy
Reminds me a bit of me. And I agree, just not as violently.
Kane wrestles fine for a big man. I like big guy but I don’t expect superior wrestling skills, just a convincing sh!t-stomping. Kane is fine doing that. It’s his character that pisses me off:
“I’m a mute monster with a horribly disfigured face!”
“No wait, I can grunt!”
“Wait, I’m not disfigured any more!”
“Holy sh!t, I can speak normally!”
“Dammit, back in the mask :(”
The character is old, beat, worn out, played out (as is Taker). Dare I say, both characters are dead and don’t fit in with today’s E. Suspension of belief is one thing, but when you constantly change things and contradict yourself over and over, the only belief I can suspend is the belief that Creative has a clue.
I could live a perfectly happy life if neither of those characters ever showed on TV again. Been there, done that, got bored ages ago.
Gillberg...Gillberg...Gillberg...
I hope they do a Kane/Henry program. Imagine the memorable matches that could produce. And the buyrates, merchandise sales… Through the roof!
They could start off as tag partners, squashing Air Boom and then easily running through Sheamus, Ryder, Ziggler, Rhodes, Swagger, and Barrett. Hell, have them beat all six in a buried alive gauntlet match. Now that would be memorable and I think they have the cardio to pull it off.
by King Oskar on Dec 13, 2011 5:31 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Talk about old
At least he doesn’t get on Twatter bragging about the bumps he takes.
Gillberg...Gillberg...Gillberg...
by GoForthAndDie on Dec 13, 2011 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
I’m reccing this because of all the comments that say “You’re not better than me! I can like what I want! That’s just your opinion.” I don’t like or dislike the original post because I don’t care about Kane, and I don’t really care very much what happens in WWE. What I do care about is the very simple idea that some cultural products or works of art are actually better than others, and that one can make a rational argument for or against the superiority of a product or work of art. You can go ahead and LOOOOOOVE WWE or Kane or whatever, that’s your choice. But if your only reasoning is I Like It So Too Bad You Elitist, then don’t get offended when you encounter someone who has higher standards.
Ha! Higher standards!
Well, since Kane got over pretty well with the crowd and has stayed over for years, I guess either his standards are so high that he should just give up on wrestling, or he’s clueless about what “good wrestling” actually is.
I think it’s the latter, more than likely.
by Razztopia on Dec 14, 2011 9:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What are the young talent doing to seserve this love?
You keep railing for the young guys to get a chance. It’s not totally incumbent on creative to get these guys over. Creative should put people in storylines that make sense and stick with them for more than 15 seconds….but THOSE GUYS need to make us believe in them. Del Rio elicits a channel flip every time he opens his mouth. He is boring and highly repetitive on the mic. Why does he deserve a push now? He had one for the better part of 2011 and hasn’t made it stick. That’s on him.
Swagger…the all-american/american/american. Is that it? Has he taken it upon himself to show more in his character than that? Frankly, Swagger is just a body with no charisma. Why push him?
Sheamus….he’s had two runs…and been fed to Trips and Cena. Now, he’s getting a bit of a slow push and making it work. You can’t blow the load now with Daniel Bryan waiting in the wings, so he’s kinda in a stuck position. BUt he’s interesting, and that’s enough to hold interest. And depending on a few things, Sheamus could be the new WHC at Wrestlemania.
Dolph and Miz are kinda in the same boat but coming from different positions. This is Dolph’s second big push, and they’re taking time with it. Dolph himself is also stepping up his game both in the ring and one the mic, justifying and improving every week. Miz is slowly fighting off yet another Cena burial, and his turn is off to an interesting start.
Zack Ryder forced creative to get behind him with his youtube stuff being so good. He took that and has made it stick on TV. The rest are just interchangeable parts, maybe unmotivated by being in the mid-card, but content to be there and cash that paycheck, and not take a chance to be moved up the card. Somebody has to show something out of the youngsters to warrant a push, and continue to show it to not only keep the push, but make it grow. Creative needs to be miles better, but the “young talent” needs to show initiative and show that they’re ready to step up and be seen and heard.
'Bama fan since birth, Niners Faithful & Hawks fan since '86, Braves fan since '90
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Del Rio elicits a channel flip every time he opens his mouth. He is boring and highly repetitive on the mic. Why does he deserve a push now? He had one for the better part of 2011 and hasn’t made it stick. That’s on him.
Del Rio was jobbed out for months to get him to “pay his dues.” I was fine with WWE jobbing him out after his title reign flopped, but the fact that WWE jobbed Del Rio out when he should’ve beaten Edge at Wrestlemania is WWE’s fault, not Del Rio’s fault.
Swagger…the all-american/american/american. Is that it? Has he taken it upon himself to show more in his character than that? Frankly, Swagger is just a body with no charisma. Why push him?
Then give him a manager. It’s a lot harder to find a great athlete and worker than it is to find a great guy on the mic.
Sheamus….he’s had two runs…and been fed to Trips and Cena.
Sheamus was fed to Hunter, Cena, Evan Bourne, Mark Henry, Randy Orton, the Great Khali, etc. before he had the chance to get over. He was treated like a jobber during the entirety of both his title reigns. It was stupid parity booking, and if WWE had so little faith in Sheamus that they weren’t willing to give him victories and credibility during his title reign, they never should’ve made him champion to begin with.
Dolph and Miz are kinda in the same boat but coming from different positions. This is Dolph’s second big push, and they’re taking time with it.
Miz sucks, so I don’t give a shit about how his push is going, as long as it’s downward.
Ziggler’s heat being killed was indefensible. If WWE didn’t have faith in Ziggler when they first gave him the title, they shouldn’t have given him the title in the first place. It was weak parity booking, it made the title look like a joke, and it made Ziggler look like a joke.
WWE’s parity booking, terrible title reigns, and jobbing out of their fresh talent who could have the potential to be stars at the expense of old standbys who used to be over (Cena) or never were over in the first place (Henry, Kane) is moronic, and needs to die a quick death.
How does Ziggler look like a joke
he has had one of the most successful US Title reigns in revent memory
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Back in my day we killed five hookers and thought nothing of it" Craig James
by WVPiratesfan on Dec 14, 2011 8:56 AM EST up reply actions
During his first title reign, he had to be awarded the belt by Teddy Long due to a screwy finish in an Edge match, only to lose the title within seconds to Edge after he’s awarded the belt.
Sure, Ziggler is doing fine in the midcard, but considering how thoroughly WWE killed his heat when they actually gave him the title, there’s no reason whatsoever to think WWE will have any faith in him by the time they give him the belt.
So because they were trying to get cheap heat on him during a feud with Edge is a show of no faith in him
okay
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Back in my day we killed five hookers and thought nothing of it" Craig James
by WVPiratesfan on Dec 14, 2011 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
It wasn't designed to get heat on Ziggler.
It was designed to bury Ziggler six feet beneath the Earth. If you actually paid attention to the feud, you’ll notice that he had zero heat once the feud was over, was forced to cut his bleached hair down to a buzzcut, and randomly drafted to RAW and given a “serious” persona.
It was as much of a show of no faith as WWE has given anybody.
I remember when Ziggler came out with that new hair, he looked like any other generic jobber. I thought his wrestling career with WWE was basically over at that point.
I don’t understand ADR losing to Edge either. He got the big push and even the Rumble win just to lose in the opening match of the big show and look like a nobody? WTF?
Hunter coming back and squashing Sheamus in two seconds was maddening. Then Sheamus couldn’t even get on the actual ’Mania card. That shows you what WWE thought of him.
It is pretty ridiculous how WWE screwed all of that (and more) up. This would be a lot easier to stomach if ECW and WCW were still around.
The serious persona that was given up on two weeks after it debuted
and he’s only gone on to be US champ for 6 months and igetting ready to drop the title to one of the most over wrestlers in the compny and is on his way to main-event status. I don’t think they gave up on him at all
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Back in my day we killed five hookers and thought nothing of it" Craig James
by WVPiratesfan on Dec 14, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
The gimmicks Nick Nemeth has been given his entire career aren't enough to indicate that WWE has zero intent to push him for you?
He started off as Chavo Guerrero’s caddy, moved on to being a member of the Spirit Squad, and now has a male boy-toy porn star gimmick that was created solely because one of Vince McMahon’s favorite movies is Boogie Nights. He’s never been booked to receive any wins over anybody important, and the fact that he was given that “serious” persona in the first place solely to kill his heat and “humble” him is just further proof that WWE doesn’t take him seriously.
Not to mention that the U.S. title doesn’t mean a damn thing, and pretending otherwise is either wishful thinking, or nostalgia for the old N.W.A. U.S. championship.
The Spirit Squad that was involved in a big time fued with DX
Not everything is meant to bury a guy. Sometimes your try something new and it doesn’t work so you go back to what did. I’m sure you would’ve hated how they changed Rocky Maiva to the The Rock as well. To say the Us title doesn’t mean a damn thing is false, The Miz held it for almost a year, MVP was about a month away from holding it for a year and he now wrestles for NJPW and was their first IWGP Intercontinental Champ, Sheamus was US champ one of those young guys you champion all the time, JBL was US champ, Chris Benoit was as well. Booker T has been US champion and Kofi has been US champ as well. How does a belt that means nothing end up on some of the most over guys in the WWE
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Back in my day we killed five hookers and thought nothing of it" Craig James
by WVPiratesfan on Dec 14, 2011 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
To say the Us title doesn’t mean a damn thing is false, The Miz held it for almost a year,
Miz lost the title to Bret Hart, has never main evented a PPV unless he was facing John Cena, has always been a tertiary player in his PPV main events, and made to look like a chump in every one of his title matches. It meant nothing for him.
MVP was about a month away from holding it for a year and he now wrestles for NJPW and was their first IWGP Intercontinental Champ,
If the U.S. title meant anything, WWE wouldn’t have jobbed their longest reigning U.S. champion out for a year. Not to mention the fact that you’re putting over how much a title means when the guy who held it was shortly kicked out of the company after holding it.
Sheamus was US champ one of those young guys you champion all the time, JBL was US champ, Chris Benoit was as well.
All these guys were given the U.S. championship after already holding the WWE championship. For Sheamus in particular, it was an active demotion from where he used to be.
Booker T has been US champion and Kofi has been US champ as well.
Booker T was given the belt as a demotion as well, not to mention that Kofi never went anywhere as U.S. champ, never had a meaningful feud as U.S. champ, and was decisively jobbed out with no buildup after holding it for less than two months.
How does a belt that means nothing end up on some of the most over guys in the WWE
The fact that you’re suggesting that anybody other than Benoit and maybe JBL were over when they held the U.S. title, or that it meant anything for the careers of anyone on this list is so blatantly ridiculous I honestly find it hard to believe you’re not a troll.
But you don't dispute that MVP obviously has some ability wrestle
He was only a champ in NJPW and held the title for a little over three months. So an active demotion requires one to be a champion shortly after being a champion, is the US Title as prestigious as the WWE or WHC no, but name any promotion where a championship title over a specific region is more prestigious. So The Miz was not over as a heel, to any one other than you who’s standard is so absurdly high, he was. Kofi has always been over with the fans, Booker T is another guy that has always been over.
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Back in my day we killed five hookers and thought nothing of it" Craig James
by WVPiratesfan on Dec 14, 2011 8:36 PM EST up reply actions
MVP was always talented.
It just didn’t ever lead to WWE giving him a serious push outside of maybe the first year or two from his debut.
If WWE was serious about pushing MVP, they wouldn’t have fired him. It’s WWE’s fault for being stupid enough to fire MVP, but it doesn’t mean that WWE was treating him seriously back when he had the U.S. title, in fact, it means the exact opposite.
So The Miz was not over as a heel, to any one other than you who’s standard is so absurdly high, he was.
Miz’s matches were horrible and completely lacking in heat. Every PPV he was on that didn’t have the Rock involved did horrifically bad numbers, the ratings never improved while he was champion, and WWE has at no point given him a serious push. Where did he succeed?
Kofi has always been over with the fans, Booker T is another guy that has always been over.
Booker T has been over at points, but never at the points where WWE gave him the U.S. title, he was just a midcard act who happened to be a WCW main eventer back when he was U.S. champion. It’s not his fault, though, because Booker was merely a victim of WWE politics due to being a WCW boy, it doesn’t mean WWE was booking him seriously back then.
Kofi was over for that period where he was feuding with Orton, and that’s it. He has never been given a serious push since then, never had anything close to a memorable feud, doesn’t sell that much merchandise, doesn’t generate good ratings during his segments, and doesn’t have any particularly memorable matches or promos outside of some MitB spots and his promos against Orton. It isn’t his fault that WWE killed his heat, though. Kofi’s very talented, and he would’ve been something today if WWE hadn’t shoved him back down the card for no reason. His U.S. title reigns never meant anything.
As a mid-card act The Miz was over as a heel
He just needs to figure out how to get convey his promos in a non-robotic way. He’s a decent wrestler, his biggest problem has been his lack of timing. He can sell very well he has a decent offense, he just has no sense of timing. He also lacks any and all muscle tone, CM Punk isn’t ripped by any stretch of the imagination but he at least looks somewhat muscular, the Miz just looks like a guy that walked off the street and did a lot of cardio and forgot to lift weights.
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Back in my day we killed five hookers and thought nothing of it" Craig James
by WVPiratesfan on Dec 15, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
so because he had some stupid gimmicks when he first started wrestling
that means he’s never going to get a push?
Maslow's theory of higher needs does not apply to Patrick Willis. He only has two needs: tackling people and finding people to tackle.
by 49erLou on Dec 14, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No.
Because he never had anything but stupid gimmicks, has never been given even a dirty high profile win over anybody of even slightest importance,* was never given a meaningful title reign, and constantly stripped of his heat before he had the chance to get teh ball rolling, it means there’s almost no chance he’ll be given a push.
*Aside from that one Randy Orton match, which will lead to nothing
but Ziggler is still young
there is still time for all of those things to happen. HHH didn’t just show as The Game all of a sudden and start kicking ass left and right, he started off with a horrible blue blood gimmick and fought I’m some corny ass feuds, but he worked his ass off and he was eventually given his chance. I see pretty much the same thing happening with Ziggler, it’s hard not to recognize how much he has improved in the ring and on the mic the last year. IMO he is going to be a main event player in the near future and
Maslow's theory of higher needs does not apply to Patrick Willis. He only has two needs: tackling people and finding people to tackle.
Dude, his blue blood gimmick was his best!
Outside of DX.
It always makes me laugh that younger fans know him as HHH, or Hunter Hearst Helmsley, but don’t know why his name sounds so hoity-toity.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 15, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
haha you're right
maybe horrible is too strong of a word, I didn’t think the gimmick was that bad, I just think some of the feuds he had during that period were not so great. Me and my buddies still like doing that little curtsy thing he used to do.
Maslow's theory of higher needs does not apply to Patrick Willis. He only has two needs: tackling people and finding people to tackle.
And....
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Back in my day we killed five hookers and thought nothing of it" Craig James
by WVPiratesfan on Dec 15, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
lol I didn't even realize that was there
I don’t think I was going to add anything else
Maslow's theory of higher needs does not apply to Patrick Willis. He only has two needs: tackling people and finding people to tackle.
All of Triple H's gimmicks at any point in his career were better than Ziggler's.
Including Terra Ryzing, and Jean Paul Levesque.
Besides, look at Triple H’s record compared to Ziggler’s. By 1995, Triple H was a midcard heel with a decent level of heat, who generally won his matches, he was jobbed out in ’96 as punishment for the curtain call, but by ’97 he was the number 2 man to the number 1 heel in the company, by ’98 he was the number 2 babyface in the company and attained clean wins over the Rock, Mick Foley, and Owen Hart, by ’99, he beat Mick Foley for the WWF title, and the moment he told Vince McMahon about his secret marriage to Stephanie, he became the biggest heel of all time.
It was all a stead rise upward making the best use of his talents, killing his heat only when he seriously breached company protocol, and never giving him a bad gimmick.
In contrast, Ziggler has been wrestling for an even longer period of time that Triple H was by the time he became the companies top heel, he has yet to attain a serious win over anyone important, yet to be given a non-terrible gimmick, and yet to get a push that was actually sustained. Barring a complete corporate leadership and attitude change, WWE isn’t changing the way they’re going to push Ziggler from where they are now, and even if they were, the way they’ve been booking Ziggler is not the way a company should ever book people with talent.
just wait and see on Ziggler
that’s all I’m saying. Have some optimism that they will finally do something right.
Maslow's theory of higher needs does not apply to Patrick Willis. He only has two needs: tackling people and finding people to tackle.
If WWE had given me any reason to be optimistic about their booking plans in the last several years, I wouldn't have such a problem with this.
Expecting WWE to properly use its talents is like expecting the sun to rise in the west.
Did you just say Terra Ryzing is a better gimmick
than Ziggler????? Have you even seen Terra Ryzing matches and really I can’t even take you seriously anymore.
Freedom is a road seldom traveled by the multitudes...
It was a better gimmick that Dolph Ziggler.
Terra Ryzing was a corny gimmick made to ape the WWF’s stranglehold on the kids market, Dolph Ziggler is a gimmick that only exists because Vince McMahon is a fan of the movie Boogie Nights, and thought it would be hilarious to model a gimmick off Dirk Diggler.
Sure, Dolph Ziggler in 2011 is a better worker than Triple H in 1992, but this isn’t an argument about wrestling ability. Ziggler’s crappy gimmicks have been damaging his ability to get over, they’ve been horrific, and suggesting that they’re an equivalent to what Triple H went through is ludicrous.
Asterisk, you are the worst.
How about people are glad Kane is back because we want to see someone get chokeslammed?
Actually, speaking of wanting to see people get chokeslammed, is Psycho Sid still able to move? Dammit, I want chokeslams and powerbombs!
Those make me happy. Not a failed push for “technically good bland guy #8,327.”
let me get this straight
you watch something you dont like
on a weekly basis
and keep ranting and bitching and ranting and bitching about it
how stupid is that ?
its like youre eating shit every week and complaining to your ass because it tastes awful
by chaggo on Dec 14, 2011 2:08 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
I haven't been watching.
I haven’t watched RAW or Smackdown since Wrestlemania 27, I haven’t paid for a PPV since MitB. I have absolutely no desire to fork over any of my money or time to WWE in any way until they start putting on something deserving of it.
I’ve just been following Cageside on the off chance that WWE gets better.
Not that it matters anyway, because if you knew I hadn’t been watching, you would be bitching about how I’m out of touch just because I’ve only been following the recaps.
You too, eh?
Also not a WWE follower. Still kinda mad about how poorly booked Christian’s title run was. They could have made the storyline be able Christian making the title run his own despite having had “help” to win it…but nooooooooo they had to make him a chickenshit heel all of the sudden. _
Anyway, back on post topic: I used to like Kane, because let’s face it, as far as big men go, very few actually move around the ring with actual form of agility like Kane and even Undertaker do. Most either lumber around most of the time (Khali, Nash) or use brief bursts of speed to steamroll their opponent (Henry), and more often than not they gas out faster than a Hummer. Taker and Kane actually have stamina, and thus are able to be more agile and quicker for longer periods of time (and more often) than other big men.
HOWEVER! The key words in the above paragraph? “USED TO LIKE”. I’m…not that high on Kane anymore. Part of that is me turning my back on The Dub (sorry, Punk and Bryan), but a lot of that is that his character wore on me. Especially during his “OMG someone beat down Taker was it you no wait it was me all along” storyline, which I feel was partially used to get the WHC off of Rey Mysterio as soon as possible (c’mon, Dub, you didn’t even give him a chance with the belt that time). After about the 2nd or 3rd promo after the revelation, I felt like “OKAY! We get it! You’re Chaotic Evil now! Can we please have Taker come back to beat your ass down so we can get this over with?” And then Taker came back…and it dragged on almost as much as the Anonymous Raw GM angle (which was NEVER PAID OFF DAMMIT).
Now Kane’s back…from outer space. He walked in and chokeslammed Cena with a new mask on his face. Did they think I’d really care? Did they think I’d bother to watch? Like I really want to see how THIS angle they’ll botch. But no, I…I will survive. As long as I’m not watching Kane, I know I’ll stay alive. (Yes, this was a musical paragraph…until now, anyway.)
Bottom line: the last few angles he was in before he left (yes, the whole “alliance of giants” with Big Show didn’t impress me either) underwhelmed me and pretty much killed me of any interest in the character of Kane on any level. …Especially after he joined Santino, Kozlov, and Show in the trombone parade. …God dammit Vince.
Time to spread a little chaos...
I am just starting to read this.. but let me point out.. ROH doesn’t work 250+ days of the year.. so their performers can do more crazy stuff. WWe needs its performers.. look at it like the modern NFL… they are protecting their investments.
In addition they like the guys that come across as larger than life. When you see them.. you’re like Whoa. At least I see the appeal as only Khali is taller & bigger than me. But why would people spend boo-coo bucks to see guys that are as big as their moms put on a show.. and dad is sitting there saying.. I can whip his ass. And he could actually be right.
by Rawuncutnxrated on Dec 14, 2011 4:13 AM EST reply actions
I am just starting to read this.. but let me point out.. ROH doesn’t work 250+ days of the year.. so their performers can do more crazy stuff.
You don’t have to kill yourself or perform needlessly dangerous spots to have a great match. John Cena vs. CM Punk at MitB was a very safe match, apart from the over the ring suplex spot, and it was the best match I’ve ever seen in my life. The Jumbo Tsuruta/Billy Robinson matches from 1977 are all very safe matches, and they’re some of the greatest matches of all time. Bret Hart was one of the safest workers ever, and almost never deviated from his routine, and he had at least a decent match every night against just about everyone.
Not being able to do dangerous spots is not an acceptable excuse for being a shitty wrestler, if you can’t find a way to work an entertaining match in a safe fashion, you’re not a good worker.
In addition they like the guys that come across as larger than life.
Larger than life is supposed to be a figure of speech to represent somebody who exudes an aura of godliness. CM Punk, Ric Flair, Chris Jericho, Steve Austin, and to some extent Randy Orton all have this without being 7 ft tall, or roid mosters, or some combination of the two.
now
hes gonna come and give you 380743 reasons why dad would get his ass kicked by any of those guys
LOL
And...?
It’s bad form to make a opinionated statement and not give any reasons to back it up.
Time to spread a little chaos...
A few things:
I actually don’t like the prospects of a Kane push, either. I’d rather go in a younger talent being pushed direction. However, I’d be lying if I said I didn’t mark out when he came back.
Do I want him to be WHC? No way. But do I want Kane 100% off my TV? No way. I want Kane’s whole thing to just be walking around chokeslamming people to hell for no apparent reason because 10-year-old me loved the shit out of him when he was feuding with ’Taker.
Also, if you’re going to tell people how dumb they are for liking something, you should at least use spell check.
“My real blame for all this lies squarely at the feat of Vince McMahon”
swing and a miss.
I want Kane’s whole thing to just be walking around chokeslamming people to hell for no apparent reason because 10-year-old me loved the shit out of him when he was feuding with ’Taker.
It’d be much more prudent on WWE’s part to have the guy who’s squashing people to be someone with a future. As much as people love seeing guys get pummeled, it takes time and effort to bring people down to the ground, and it takes heat away from the guys getting pummeled. Because of these sacrifices, it should only be people who are actually good who steamroll the roster.
Think about what would’ve happened if anybody else in the roster got to randomly steamroll people for no reason, and kept that up for weeks or months? It’d really help them, wasting that effort on Kane helps no one.
Also, if you’re going to tell people how dumb they are for liking something, you should at least use spell check.
I’d rather go in a younger talent being pushed direction.
People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.
That's not a spelling error.
I should have used hyphens. “a younger-talent-being-pushed direction” or just completely rephrased it. Your glass house comment doesn’t hold water, though.
by Kyle Rancourt on Dec 20, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
It does.
Grammatical screw ups are just as bad as misplacing a homophone, in fact, in many ways it’s worse.
which is worse
misplacing a homophone or Mark Henry?
Maslow's theory of higher needs does not apply to Patrick Willis. He only has two needs: tackling people and finding people to tackle.
Asterisk
You are the worst. Your opinions are bad because you can’t properly judge what makes good wrestling. Stop posting your terrible opinions, not because I don’t necessarily want to see them, but because I am embarrassed for you and how clueless you are when it comes to pro wrestling.
One day, you might have a cogent thought pop up in one of these rambling, clueless FanPosts. I’m not holding my breath, but it is possible. It is also possible that our existence is all the fleeting dream of a giant space-beetle. But, you know, there is a possibility!
How dare you
Kane is my favorite wrestler and I am stoked to see him back. It was something to celebrate and i did. And not just because he’s a character from “the glory days” but because he’s my favorite character. It may not be something you enjoy but that doesn’t mean others won’t.

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