If You're a Pro Wrestling Fan, MMA Snobs Think You're a Fat Idiot and Shouldn't Talk About the UFC
Let me start by saying that this is not a crusade against Luke Thomas. He is being used here as mainly an example of what many pro wrestling fans encounter on a daily basis in regards to their newly found love of MMA. The younger generation of kids that grow up watching wrestling may get to a point where they want to break into the legitimate sports world and MMA is a great way to do that. They do not, however, want to be ridiculed for still enjoying professional wrestling.
I didn't want to go so far as to make a front page post about this but I was encouraged and I'm tired enough of what I'm hearing that I'm doing so. If you read this blog that implies that you are in some form or another a pro wrestling fan. As commenter KJ Gould pointed out in this post, WWE.com was the 1,079th most visited site on the entire internet in the last quarter. All of those people, according to many MMA snobs, are fat idiots.
I'm always pained to see someone say something ridiculous like that in regards to anything but it really strikes a nerve here. First of all, someone in the position that Luke has worked his way into as the Editor-in-Chief of Bloody Elbow, hosting MMA Nation on CBS Radio, which is a great show, and now a new partnership with Comcast SportsNet should not being saying such things. I couldn't wish anything more for the guys at BE like Kid Nate, who gives us a lot of love, Brent Brookhouse, who is also a fan of pure wrestling and Mike Fagan. It's great that those guys get out to so many people because they deserve it. The kind of conduct that Luke is engaging in is the same kind of conduct that he has banned members of that site for in the past. MMA Nation is a good show and the BE comments section is fun and informative but not when the Editor-in-Chief is saying things like that.
Thomas was on The Jordan Breen show today and they talked pro wrestling. In a nutshell, he again said that pro wrestling fans are intellectually challenged, that we're assholes and that he likes things that are real, therefore he can't like pro wrestling. His main beef seems to be that we draw too many parallels to the world of MMA and he hates the terminology we use. Here is what he had to say on BE in a fanpost promoting his appearance on the Jordan Breen Show:
...how utterly simplistic, idiotic, fanboyishly reflexive, slovenly, intellectually lazy, inappropriate and otherwise annoying to no end how pro wrestling fans try to distill MMA into pro wrestling terms and concepts to help them understand the support. Jordan and I take a gigantic dump on the moronic p.w. constructs, so I'm sure some of you are going to further hate my guts, but that's what you get for having the entertainment palate of a toddler.
You could argue that I'm an asshole but to call me and so many others intellectually challenged because we watch a work of fiction is like calling the millions of people who go to movie theaters a bunch of fat idiots too. He only likes things that are real? Seriously? So he hates movies, sitcoms, dramas, video games and all works of fiction. As far as the terminology goes, that's applied everywhere and to everything. The term heel was taken from pop culture where it was used to describe a contemptible person. In pro wrestling they use it to describe a bad guy. I wonder if it would bother Luke that for the purpose of this writing, he is the heel and everyone else is the babyface?
Is he trying to piss off people like me and you who enjoy pro wrestling? It would appear so, now wouldn't it? It gets people talking and that's a lot of the point. But make no mistake, he actually believes a lot of what he is saying. Hard to believe, I know, but he really does. We're trying not to hold it against you Luke but you're making it hard on us.
Most hatred is rooted in ignorance and this is no different. The Attitude Era had it's pros and cons. This seems to be an instance of Thomas, among so many others, believing that we love wrestling because of the "sports entertainment" side of it. That the only reason we tune in is to listen to these guys cut promos and spray beer all over the place. This couldn't be any further from the truth. A wrestling match is an art form. When done properly, by talented guys who know how to work a crowd, it's a beautiful thing. I guess he can't get past the fact that they aren't actually punching each other or trying to hurt each other to see what is clear as day to the rest of us; there is more to it than that. They are telling a story with each move they make and you have to see past the surface to find it.
Kid Nate has always stated that he has an appreciation for the inner workings of the wrestling business much the same as he has an appreciation for public relations and politics. I feel very much the same way. It's fascinating to think about the goings on in the back in regards to what guys are going to get the next push or are going to get buried. Many of the things that draw people to wrestling make themselves evident in MMA, as much as some might hate that thought. If you can't see past the fact that it's "fake" then of course you aren't going to like it. You have to look deeper than that. Maybe the problem is that, for some, the capacity to look deeper just doesn't exist.
Plenty of famous personalities make their way to wrestling shows and have a great time. How long ago was it that Ben Roethlisberger hosted Raw? Remember Rampage Jackson and how much he was gushing on his Twitter about how great it was to be a part of it and how much he's always loved it? Larry Miller is an actor and comedian and he loves wrestling. In a blog post he put up in March, Miller says this:
We really did have a great time. This is the WWE, Wordwide Wrestling Entertainment, and, folks, these people, at every level, put on the best evening, the best fun, the best show, the best everything.....Anyone who doesn’t get wrestling, doesn’t get America.
He isn't the only one to think that. We don't take wrestling nearly as serious as some would believe. Certainly not as serious as fight fans take their MMA. There is good reason for both. We laugh at it when they do something stupid just as you do. But we certainly aren't going to tell you that what you love is garbage. Even if we don't understand it.
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Cheese and rice...
That’s some intense vitriol Luke is spewing there.
Luke’s a smart guy but seriously, he’s gotta reel back his pro wrestling hate. It’s not a good look.
Contributor, NorthTexasFisticuffs.com
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by Applejack McNeil on Aug 26, 2010 6:30 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Agreed.
It was enough to prompt this response. Had enought of it going without anyone answering the call.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
It should also be noted...
That Luke is a curmudgeon.
He hates most MMA fans almost as much as much as pro wrestling fans.
Contributor, NorthTexasFisticuffs.com
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by Applejack McNeil on Aug 26, 2010 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's definitely part of his character.
I say character because he wasn’t always like that. He used to be quite engaging in threads, which was part of what got people to that site to begin with.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
by misterjonez on Aug 26, 2010 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
well in the early days it was
easy because most of the people who came across BE were early adopters and hardcore fans. As our audience grew we attracted more of the special bus kids and Luke doesn’t have much patience. We also started getting hate from other writers who were, franklly, jealous. It’s been kind of an odd and painful thing since we were not quite prepared for the spotlight, as it were.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I hear what you're saying, and it makes perfect sense.
The problem is, I really do believe that what made BE what it was, and the reason it attracted so much readership along the way is because of how engaging it (in its entirety) used to be. Access to writers with as much passion as you guys have is rare, and it’s a big part of what makes a community feel invested.
It is a delicate balancing act, and I’ve never been perfect at striking it in my own experiences. So it’s not like there’s a simple answer to it.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
Good on you, sir.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Aug 26, 2010 6:32 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
[Loud, sustained applause]
Not really an MMA fan, but disturbed by the strength of vitriol dished out there, and appreciate your reasonable, measured response. Considered posting a link as a fanshot on BE? Or would that be close to trolling?
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
Pretty funny that...
The same way some MMA fans treat pro wrestling fans is the same way that some boxing fans loathe MMA fans.
by 3r1c on Aug 26, 2010 6:52 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
There are certainly
similarities between the two. Good catch.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
Very nice article. I remember when MMA was begging it’s ascent reading a few articles of the boxing experts going to an MMA show to give it a shot (i actually think one of those articles was on SBnation, maybe for UFC 100?). You guys should make Luke go to a Wrestling show with you, and see how that turns out.
The BE staff is far from stupid.
Those guys have, pretty much undoubtedly, the savviest collection of MMA writers in the business. Do they have incredible technical insights into what is going on during a fight? Not really, although they’re better than the general public, to be sure.
What they’re really good at is doing what Luke pretends to dislike so much: play roles. They all have their particular angles that they’ll needle the audience on, and whether or not they actually believe/feel what they’re saying, they deliver it effectively enough that it generates interest and discussion.
Luke probably does have a true, deep-seated problem with pro wrestling. Many folks do. But he also recognizes that he can whip up traffic by cranking it up to vitriolic levels. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a solid business approach, and probably the only way to rise above the competition in today’s age of extreme media coverage.
In today’s media world, if you’re not publicly giving your audience fellatio or sticking white hot pokers in their genitals, you’re probably not getting their attention.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
best breakdown of BE I've seen anywhere
fitting that it comes from an old school BE member.
while you may be breaking the BE kayfabe to some extent, it’s not something we planned, rather it’s just something that evolved.
Rome and I basically disagreed on everything so we used BE to hash it out. We need a new Rome. : (
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
If you need somebody to disagree with everything you write...
…I’m here for you.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
you've been invited to front page before
do some fucking fanposts. can’t take more time than the 1,000,000 comments you write.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I wrote a few, but it started cutting into my "riling up the short bus kids" time.
A man’s gotta have priorities. Besides, more people seem to take the time to read comments than they do the articles. ;-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I'm not sure which part...
…but I’m going to assume the latter. And even if there’s a much larger group of lurkers that are just hanging out on the front pages and never descending into the morass of comments, I’m not really concerned with them. The only folks I’m writing for are those that want to engage in a debate. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
What happened to Rome?
By the way, nice use of kayfabe there, but does it count since I’m no longer with the company?
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
It's cute to me that what seems to bother so many about what Luke said...
Is the implication that they’re fat.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
It's cute that you read
the title and not the article and commented based on that. Thanks for the insight.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
CagesideSeats.com
I was actually talking about the other reactions I've seen online to Luke's comments.
But it’s cute that you’ve chosen to insult me when I didn’t actually insult you. Thanks.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Excellent reading skills.
The article actually has a lot to do with the fact that bros like Luke think that pro wrestling fans are inbred. It would be like a real sports journalist saying all MMA fans are like this dude:

by John Lamb on Aug 26, 2010 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Actually, the BE group on more than one occasion has
called out the MMA fans for being too white/white-centric/anti-anything-black on quite a few occasions.
They’re oh-so-clever about how they dress it up, but yeah, they have fired that particular volley at their own sport’s fanbase a few times.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
by misterjonez on Aug 26, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I read it.
See above. Not everything is about you.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
So you came to make a comment on an article about reactions elsewhere on the internet but not the article itself? Well played.
The article, like all articles, is about a topic
Commenting on the topic under discussion is generally considered the best you can hope for on the Internet.
Also: do you and Gene always work so hard to make your users feel unwelcome?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
He sure is uppity for a guy who likes Human cockfighting.
by Victator on Aug 26, 2010 10:20 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
That term, "human cockfighting"
always elicits sword-crossing/gay porn images in my head. Why couldn’t McCain have come up with a better derisive term?
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
by misterjonez on Aug 26, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I used to like pro wrestling. Then I turned 10.
I have to agree with Luke.
"That muscle contraction, that core strength that kind of happens, that pulls together when you’re maybe smoking weed or whatever, you know, you’re coughing or whatever ... I’m not a doctor or a fucking scientist, but I’ve smoked plenty of weed. And, you know, I think in my opinion it’s pretty damn good for you." MMAPlayground Profile
I'm not as mature as you.
I watched until I was 11.
But I don’t think Luke succeeded in getting across why so many of us stopped watching pro wrestling. It’s not that it’s fake – it’s that it’s poorly produced. When Geno compares pro wrestling’s fakeness to movies, he’s only half-wrong. The problem isn’t that it’s fictional – it’s that the quality of production and execution is more like Python 3 than Avatar.
Insulting people for liking something that I don’t isn’t my style. I have a $250+/month habit in comic books, and many of them can be pretty lame, so welcome to my glass house. But where Luke is right – and in my opinion his biggest crime is descending into invective in a way that obscures his larger point – is that analogies about the MMA and pro wrestling business models are always simplistic at best and innacurate at worst. They serve as a distraction from the fact that apart from appearing on PPV and featuring half-naked men, there isn’t much that they share.
The people that make these analogies WANT them to be true and they want MMA to be more like pro wrestling. Those of us who appreciate our sports more than our entertainment react a little poorly when somebody suggests that sort of thing.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Luke Thomas isn't an MMA snob
He’s a snob, generally. He enjoys being an elitist and I find that funny. He’ll patronise former guests on his radio show and say how stupid they are while boasting he reads classic works like The Illiad.
Jordan Breen went along with Luke Thomas’ derision over terminology and jargon from pro wrestling being attributed to MMA, but then without a sense of sarcasm or an intent of irony Breen used the term ‘Mark’ when describing the territories UFC were targeting for expansion. Oops. Sorry Jordan, ‘Mark’ is a term from the Pro Wrestling world that has its origins in the Carnivals where Carnies looked to con a victim out of money.
Which brings me to this point: the aforementioned terminology and jargon that Luke Thomas has contempt for doesn’t come from the “fat, retarded” fans, but from within the industry; an industry that has always had at the very least ‘Street Smart’ people operating within it. Terms used by Carnies and Hustlers, but not retards. “Intellectually Challenged”? Maybe from a strictly academic point of view, but there has been a lot said about academic intellectuals lacking in the often more crucial Common Sense.
Most of what Luke Thomas said really wasn’t that bad and having a main post regarding it feels more like making a Mountain out of a Molehill. But by damning these terms as ‘moronic’ while admitting he doesn’t know what they mean (and thereby how they came about) is on the same level as shutting yourself off from the contemporary English language that has evolved with a multitude of colloquialisms over centuries and instead choosing to live in a world where you will only engage in an early Anglo Saxon dialect.
I’m not saying Luke Thomas has to use these terms, of course not. I’m not saying he has to like them. But I think he owes it to himself as a journalist to at least learn what they mean and their origin since they are becoming more commonly used in MMA journalism – for better or for worse.
"Mark" comes from carnies, and pro wrestling comes from carnies, but that doesn't make "mark" a pro wrestling term.
…unless you want to argue that “funnel cake” is also a pro wrestling term. The word was used to describe people being “marked” as easy targets for a scam long before it was generalized to “a fan of pro wrestling.”
As to what it should mean to pro wrestling fans that the folks producing the show consider them marks… Well, let’s just say that the folks behind pro wrestling seem to have more in common with Luke Thomas than he’d like to admit.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Luke Thomas knows more about Pro Wrestling then he cares to admit. I’m transcribing the parts of his interview with Jordan Breen that I found to be of interest, and I’ve already caught Luke Thomas out based on what he’s said (and claimed he has no knowledge of).
Yes, well
I’m not, as you’ll note, here to argue about what Luke does or doesn’t know, as I couldn’t give a shit. Good luck with your crusade.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

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