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Optimistic for Frank Edgar vs Gray Maynard at UFC 125

via www.ufc.com

Anyone who gets to know me well enough will agree I'm fairly tolerant. When it comes to poor, disappointing or lacklustre fighter performances I believe in second chances and giving fighters the benefit of the doubt in the face of widespread criticism. For instance I was willing to look at certain factors in the Anderson Silva vs Cote / Leites fights while others weren't, although Silva truly lost me in the mockery he made of the sport against Demian Maia which was one of MMA's all time low points in my opinion.

With that in mind I think a lot of the criticism since the Gray Maynard vs Frank Edgar rematch was officially made has been unwarranted and exaggerated. For months we've heard it's a match up that will generate little interest and will have to be propped up by a stellar card due to the inevitable dud the main event would be. I even saw some critics write off UFC 125 completely when Jose Aldo pulled out due to injury but I can only assume these critics also happen to be hypochondriacs.

Edgar vs Maynard part deux has the potential to be a great fight. While I have no problem with a strong card supporting it I disagree with others who say it really needs it but I'm probably in the minority. We all know for any Pay Per View to be a success the casual fans with disposable income is the target audience. Unfortunately in the run up to this fight I don't think Edgar or Maynard have been marketed that well by the UFC, especially Edgar their new champion. Even after two back to back wins against legend BJ Penn maybe they still don't want to invest in Edgar because they believe or hope he won't be champion for long, something I felt they did similarly with Anderson Silva when he first took the belt off Rich Franklin (UFC even tried to give Franklin a sense of home town advantage in their rematch). Maybe the UFC still remember Edgar's prior loss to Maynard and are bracing themselves for an even less popular champion.

Star-divide

Edgar doesn't talk trash but as he gave us a brief glimpse of at the UFC 125 pre-fight press conference, he has a sense of humour. His story is a good one - an undersized New Jersey overachieving underdog - and his fights tend to be exciting despite not leading to a finish. When he first burst into the UFC and upset Tyson Griffin it was easily one of the best fights of the year and Edgar has had fight of the night honours twice since. His first fight with BJ Penn seemed to end in controversy (something I didn't see myself other than some scoring specifics) but the second left no doubt and it was quite frankly a superlative performance. Fancy footwork and a great mix of striking and level changing, corner turning takedowns showed Edgar was coming into his own as a fighter and taking strides towards the top of the sport regardless of weight class.

Then there's Gray Maynard who many believe to be the main downside of this fight. His personality isn't the most captivating or extroverted to say the least and while that might be a promotional problem it can be compensated for by electrifying performances in the ring, something Maynard has yet to deliver. However Maynard does have moments of intrigue that get overlooked and forgotten. His hands have been getting better for a long time and he definitely has KO power as his second fight in the UFC against Joe Veres showed although the quick fashion it happened in would cause many to claim it as a fluke occurrence. Also a fluke occurrence was the No Contest in his fight prior where he slammed Robert Emerson to a stoppage while also knocking himself out (some cynics would say that's the most exciting Maynard's ever been). He has the potential to pull off crowd pleasing slams but similarly to Edgar the plethora of decision victories unfairly count against him.

Maynard has also on occasion shown innovative submission attempts. Who here remembers the head scissor / 'Kimura' he torqued Roger Huerta with? Post-fight more focus was on Huerta toughing it out while the testing of his shoulder mobility had everyone cringing rather than the uniqueness of the submission in an MMA fight. In fact since then we've seen similar combo moves get more attention when Chris Lytle or Cole Miller have pulled them off, although they got the all important finish when they did theirs.

Maynard-3_medium_medium

 

A lot of people previewing this fight believe they've got the outcome sussed: Edgar wins on the feet, Maynard wins on the ground, it'll end in a decision. That in itself is a likely, possible outcome but shouldn't bring with it the sense of doom and gloom inaction many are predicting.

It's become an increasing trend to heavily criticise a fighter that doesn't finish a fight. The UFC and some other promotions offer financial incentives for a finish, but plenty of fights that go the distance are capable of achieving the Fight of the Night bonus as we've seen countless times. Kenny Florian attempts to market himself as someone who finishes fights and along with other fighters who unnecessarily apologise for not finishing feed the notion that if you don't finish, you must suck. Dana White's catchphrase of "Don't leave it in the hands of the judges" is more of a cop-out from directly criticising Athletic Commission negligence and incompetence rather than being of any sage advise, with the most White will do is go after a particular referee but never a particular judge, and certainly not an overseeing Head Honcho (maybe there are certain people the mighty Zuffa cower from).

The more high level and even a match up the more likely we are to see stalemates during a fight and the more judges decisions we'll see decide the outcome. Sometimes a finish is as much to do with skill as it is to do with an imbalance in talent between the two fighting, or it can be a certain X-Factor like concussive power and it comes down to who lands first, something that tends to occur more at the heavier weights than the lower. Fighters should be able to leave it in the hands of the judges as should any athletes where observer scoring is necessary otherwise there's no point in having them. In combat sports though, they're as necessary as weight classes and time limits and should be embraced as a sign of legitimacy despite the many flaws it currently needs to iron out.

The concept of a decision should always be seen as two fighters at their best evenly matched and having their contest going down to the wire despite the varying, random reality of how entertaining the fight will be which can only ever be discussed fairly in hindsight. Personally I can see Edgar and Maynard going back and forth in a technical battle showing off a complete MMA game where both fighters will have their moments on the feet as well as on the ground with a few good scrambles in between. That's the sort of fight we should all hope goes the distance so it's something to savour and pour over in time to come. I'd certainly take that over a short fight that ends without telling us much or is anti-climatic.

Edgar vs Maynard 2 could be the sleeper fight of the night. Here's to hoping.

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I hope you're right

if that Sherdog article is right Maynard may be doing some interesting things with neck cranks in this bout. Look forward to getting your catch perspective on the action.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Dec 31, 2010 4:04 PM EST reply actions  

Pardon the bad language, but this really fucks me off

BJJ’s insistence to rename and reform every fucking thing in their own image and brag about inventing and creating stuff sickens me.

I may be wrong, but what that article calls a “Pressure Cooker” and describes sounds a lot like a Grovit or Front Face Lock and it comes from wrestling. Guys like this in BJJ (and there are a LOT) are like the evil soulless marketing execs Bill Hicks used to rant about on stage.

There’s nothing new under the sun. Any and every possible movement and articulation the human body is capable of going through has happened in the hundreds of thousands of years in history. Not even Catch guys from Lancashire are arrogant enough to claim they invented something, I’ve heard Robinson say about certain moves it probably came from ancient Persia or Greece or somewhere.

Apologies but I’m ill and irritable.

I’ll leave the legend Billy Robinson say it in his own words http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdTSdX3zMus

by KJ Gould on Dec 31, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually Josh Gross just linked me a video

And the move in particular the article mentions is a lot like a Chancery (with a sloppy Half Halch at the beginning, and a sort of sleeper at the end :P)

by KJ Gould on Dec 31, 2010 5:40 PM EST up reply actions  

link?

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Dec 31, 2010 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's the video

Once they stop yammering, you see a Half Halch (underhook + headlock) to an arm-in Chancery, to a choke at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnBrjwJ9HIE

by KJ Gould on Dec 31, 2010 7:10 PM EST up reply actions  

he he

I’d apologize for setting you off, but I’m not really sorry. Love it when you rant about Catch vs BJJ.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Dec 31, 2010 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

The thing about Catch vs BJJ debate is

There doesn’t need to be a Catch vs BJJ debate, at least in terms of technique. In MMA striking is being Mixed all the time: Boxing, European Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, all merging and cross training to an extent in a variety of places. Yet the grappling side still feels very separate and distinct. It’s BJJ, and it’s Wrestling, to a lesser extent Judo and a far lesser extent Catch and Sambo. The lack of cross training still in this regard to me is insane and it comes down to a nonsensical superiority complex in “my art is greater then yours”. Really? I thought that crap was over once we saw MMA develop from style vs style. But because BJJ was THE style that conquered all that limited viewpoint existed for a long while too.

What I will say is, I’m a stickler for history and posterity, and the gripe I demonstrated deep down is a gripe over rewriting history. It’d be like forgetting we used to call the sport No Holds Barred or Vale Tudo, or allowing the term MMA to be replaced by Ultimate Fighting or regurgitating certain Zuffa revisions like the notorious “we got the sport sanctioned” spiel. That’s what winds me up :)

by KJ Gould on Dec 31, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions  

plenty of fights that go the distance are capable of achieving the Fight of the Night bonus as we’ve seen countless times.

Indeed (cheap plug incoming, but hey, at least stats are included):

‘Fight of the Night’ bonuses belie myth of the finish

Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com
http://twitter.com/usatmma

by Sergio Non on Dec 31, 2010 7:31 PM EST reply actions  

you are missing the issue

The issue with decisions isn’t fights not ending, its fighters doing things that won’t finish a fight, just score points. Most mma fans want to see something far different than point fighting, hence the anger with some styles (fitch, machida, etc)…when 2 fighters are evenly matched but trying to finish,it can be the best 15 minutes ever, but if nobody is trying to finish the fight…then its silva maia 2…

by i like inverted triangles on Dec 31, 2010 10:16 PM EST reply actions  

It comes down to risks and how often fighters want to take them. Some fighters are fine with point fighting, guess what, they can outscore people and win. If the fans don’t like it, that’s a shame, if the opponent doesn’t like it, find a way to beat him. That’s the way it works.

Twitter me @kkelchner621
Read me at WatchKalibRun

by Kaleb Kelchner on Jan 1, 2011 12:19 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yep

Risk vs Reward. Sometimes it better to get the ‘W’ especially when MMA guys are only fighting for tens of thousands of dollars most of the time. No point getting reckless since what they’re earning won’t cover future medical care when they’re retired.

by KJ Gould on Jan 1, 2011 5:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, the bottom line is the W makes the money and the progression

Regardless of the size of the purse, you’re better off winning. Being too risky and going for a finish and getting beat yourself is a bad strategy.

UNLESS:
1) In the interests of excitement, UFC awards bonuses for every finish as they did in TUF (some seasons)
2) Fighters who go for the finish and LOSE are given better chances to stay in the UFC and progress their career. There is evidence that “exciting” fighters get to lose more than boring ones before getting cut, but even so, too many losses due to high-risk fighting will eventually torpedo a career.
3) Judging gets adjusted to reward more damaging moves. For example, soft takedowns that result in no damage should count less than a single hard punch. Ground control lasting 3 minutes but causes no damage should also count relatively little. Sure, it tires the opponent a little but a single punch that causes bleeding or bruising ought to count about equal to these 3 minutes of control. Solid submission attempts that cause pain, fatigue or genuinely threaten to end the fight should count more than several minutes of ground control that does no damage, etc. Basically, anything that pushes the fight to a conclusive finish should count more than damage-less techniques (e.g. open hand slap that does nothing).

I would really like to see some of these things put in place.

by Arca MMA on Jan 1, 2011 7:31 AM EST up reply actions  

You are spot on about all of what you said. I am not referring to being risky, I am referring to how some people use techniques that don’t create damage, just score points. If a fighter doesn’t know how to throw a proper punch and he’s bouncing all around with arm punches, I’m not sweating it, but if you refuse to throw any power because you just want to run around, you aren’t stopping a fight(imagine someone slapping and dodging the entire fight instead of punching…its the equivalent in my opinion). I don’t need a fighter to go for a stupid sub attempt before gaining position, or just be an idiot and stand and trade, but when all one does is slap and run, I have no interest

by i like inverted triangles on Jan 1, 2011 8:29 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

…using “safe” techniques that focus more on scoring rather than damage is a clear cut risk based decision. Say I’m Lyoto Machida going into the second Shogun fight. I have a decent following of fans now, and they really liked how I fought before I took the title, KOing Thiago Silva and Rashad Evans. I reverted to my old style in the Shogun fight, and he found a weakness in it, even though I thought it was safe…the fans hated it. So now, I’m going to be more aggressive, and seek to finish Shogun, rather than edge him out.

Oh, shit, I got knocked out trying to come forward and trade with Shogun fucking Rua.

Risk, versus reward. I see what you’re saying, about not being “risky” but understand that EVERY choice in a fight is based on risk…not letting your opponent be able to capitalize on your mistakes. A fighter’s goal should be to leave as few windows as opportunity for their opponent to defeat them…if that means it turns out to be boring, well, some guys are okay with that. Others go out seeking those big bonuses…it’s all good, but I favor fighters who fight to the best of their abilities, even if it’s not great to watch in some cases.

Twitter me @kkelchner621
Read me at WatchKalibRun

by Kaleb Kelchner on Jan 1, 2011 9:09 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm a "vive la difference" guy

I’ll enjoy watching crazy stand-and-trade guys
I’ll enjoy watching super evasive guys that counterstrike
I’ll enjoy watching GSP jab his way to a dominant 5-rd win over Kos
I’ll enjoy two great BJJ guys scrambling, reversing, attempting submissions
I’ll even enjoy the occasional lay’n’pray guy if he’s really good at it… admittedly the LNP and Wall n Stall styles have taken me longer to appreciate and enjoy, and they aren’t as fun for me as the other types… but I am still impressed when someone is able to win dominantly using these techniques and shut down the opposition.

UFC the way it is today, I mostly enjoy. Most of the fights are watchable to entertaining, with the occasional brilliant or unwatchable fight. Cro Cop – Mir comes to mind as a bad one, Pettis-Henderson as a really good one.

Overall though, I think fighting should be scored on damage or how close one fighter is to finishing. Right now the judging methodology seems like it doesn’t do this. I’d like to see a little more weighting on damage or good submission attempts, a little less on positional advantage (being on top on the ground or standing “octagon control”).

by Arca MMA on Jan 1, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Man, I am still trying to forget about Cro Cop vs. Mir…that fight was horrific. The worst part about it is, everyone knew that Mir could walk through him…Cro Cop had excuses at the ready, and is in the twilight of his career…the match was Mir’s for the taking, and he didn’t look interested in taking it. It was a weird blend of a guy not taking risks…but also not fighting to his strengths…Mirko had nothing for him but Mir was not interested in engaging.

Twitter me @kkelchner621
Read me at WatchKalibRun

by Kaleb Kelchner on Jan 1, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m with you are arca about damage being the judging factor. machida is the perfect example of a fighter fighting safe but trying to finish just failing to. Cruzs style is to hit and evade which causes him to be out of position to finish most of the time even when a hit lands… he’s trying but failing… when a guy clearly is trying to finish that’s when it’s boring. I don’t blame the fighter I’m sure they are trying.. Some guys don’t realize that there message won’t finish the fight they are trying just don’t know… A guy like fitch would finished fight if there is no time limits because the guy on bottom would be exhausted… But that’s not the case and it ends up boring

by i like inverted triangles on Jan 1, 2011 11:34 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Supposed to say when a guy isn’t trying to finish sorry

by i like inverted triangles on Jan 1, 2011 11:36 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Yeah won’t use voice to text in the future sorry about the craziness in last post

by i like inverted triangles on Jan 1, 2011 11:37 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Where to watch the replay?

They got the REPLAY of UFC 125 up over on http://watchmmafree.com

thumbs up

by MMAmadman666 on Jan 2, 2011 2:19 PM EST reply actions  

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